🫩

Have you actually looked if there’s scholarship on it? Because I’d be amazed if there isn’t, and I’m gonna be pissed if I use my library and find a shitload of it.

Some of you guys get so desperate for my attention.

Yeah, they’re three words that refer to similar types of people, incredible that they’d be used appropriately on Lemmy of all places.

I’ll do what’s best for you and block.

Ten years ago, dickheads like this said the same shit about pointing out the harm in edgy memes. There’s always a chud angered by the notion that they should think about what they say.

No, more gently telling you that you didn’t realize something you said was contradictory, and using that to show that you don’t know enough about this to be trying to speak like an authority.

Oh good 😅 they just scream and cry.

I can’t even count how many times I’ve explained this to libs on here. No, this is not a joke “for the gays,” just because some gay men are traitors. The focus on “hypocrisy” is a convenient excuse to suspend criticality over what the joke actually is, with the presumption that calling this man gay just means that he’s hypocritical. In the real world, you guys just keep calling people you don’t like gay because you know it means “bad,” and they don’t like being called gay.

No, that does not mean there has to be zero gay fascists for this joke to not he harmful, because that also expects a moral purity of gay men as a community before you interrogate the actual meanings behind your words.

If only. Unfortunately, I am cursed with a social life and obligations, emails, and income taxes like all of the other poor rubes. If only I hated women more, I could have lived outside of this cruel society 😔

One: the reality of our world is that we are in a patriarchy with cultural norms conducive to patriarchy, and the overwhelming majority of rapists are men, who also happen to be privileged within rape culture.

Two: Consent isn’t gendered, and you’ll note (if you can muster up the courage to read my comments) I do say very explicitly multiple times that this is also expected of women.

Three: if you’re going to dump the incel all over, put down a sign at the very least.

It also happens to be consistent with 20th century homophobic narratives about gay men hiding among us and instigating a degeneration of society. Almost like most people never actually stopped being bigoted, but just learned what actions are visibly bigoted.

Done gooning to shellfish allergies, I see.

Well, that’s certainly news to me, which is surprising given my experience with the subject of sexual violence and culture. Could you cite where you learned about rape culture in a way that recognizes cultural norms but ignores the nuances of depictions of acts in media as well as media’s role in reproducing harmful norms? That’d be interesting.

(I’m also curious if you read my comment(s), since I stated multiple times that it isn’t inherently sexual violence)

You’re getting closer with the third paragraph there, and also yes it is important to recognize the nuances of consent negotiation like in your fourth paragraph.

The problem is the meme itself, because this content exists within this cultural context and carries meanings whether or not the creator intended it to. I used the word “read” multiple times to help soften those meanings by emphasizing how they’re fluid, but that doesn’t always work given the amount of men that are offended at this meaning being present. So, yes, the fact that you were all expected to not ask about consent is a problem, given that the meme does literally depict something that qualifies as sexual violence unless it happened in a healthy relationship. The assumption that, because these people are in a relationship, the perspective of one of those people sexualizing the other while they are unconscious indicates that they are in a healthy rather than problematic relationship is far more of a clear cut example of rape culture than what you and others appear to read from this meme.

That isn’t someone on the outside looking in, that’s something we all participate in as members of society. Yes, this behaviour will be appropriate in many relationships, but that it is expected to be appropriate despite there being zero evidence that it is is an example of how men do not even think about how this comes off as rapey, which points to the reality that many if not most men perpetrate sexual violence exactly because they are socialized to think this way.

You and many others take this to mean I’m saying that this guy is evil, which is probably why so many get pissed since it is something they definitely do, consent or otherwise, and consider it safely harmless (legally speaking); which it may very well be in their own relationship. Unfortunately, that is not reality. In reality, sexual violence is not perpetrated exclusively by evil men, but mostly by average men who do not intend to cause that harm. There are countless examples like not sufficiently considering sobriety and consent, not anticipating a boundary, thinking of consent as only explicit language that their partners are responsible to communicate rather than constant verbal/nonverbal communication that you are both responsible to be looking for, and not expected to always be communicated clearly. That is not essentially asking if someone is doing something wrong, that is recognizing our partners as human people who trust us to anticipate and read their feelings. If we look for those signs outside of our own relationships, we are recognizing the reality that it is not expected of men to think about consent beyond what might qualify definitively (legally speaking) as “rape.”

If so many of you don’t want to commit sexual violence, it’s better to learn and adopt a more nuanced understanding of how you have been socialized and how your actions effects others regardless of your intent. No, if you’ve done this before, you aren’t an irredeemable rapist, but you do become a worse person if you don’t address it now that you know it’s a problem. It is in fact more pessimistic to believe that men are not capable of that level of introspection and change, and that expecting them to do so is somehow a slight on them. Many men get mad at me every time I point these things now, but some learn as they should be trusted and expected to.

I’m not going to write two responses to the same questions, and another person asked it in a much less defensive, angry way. So, you can just read this and see what your issue is:

Okay, so some good questions here that I’m glad to see on Lemmy.

So, objectification is one of those things I think men get more anxious about because they typically have less intuitive, lived experiences to understand where those boundaries ought to be assumed. Objectification is not itself inherently wrong; we are objectified when we have an assigned number for our driver’s license, and we often want to be sexually objectified by our partners, as you pointed out

People tend to be uncomfortable with the reality that the wrongness of objectification is something negotiated, not statically defined with clear lines that you could show in court. In one of my other comments, I said that this element is not necessarily an issue depending on the relationship. Yes, people have those discussions throughout a relationship (ideally), and if this was something established as appropriate, that isn’t much of an issue.

However, this is not two people in a relationship, this is an internet meme whose legibility is dependent on the assumptions and shared values of an audience. So, in that context, the fact that it is expected that so many of you wouldn’t take issue with this (and didn’t) is the problem. Women’s bodies are sexually objectified culturally, which means non-sexual contexts or attributes of their bodies are constructed as sexual, i.e. when men peep on their feet like they’re genetalia publicly, or when nakedness alone is considered sexual, despite that not being the case. Combined with the nuances of negotiated consent and the cultural norms of hetero relationships, that also means many (or most) cishet men do not even think about explicit consent when they’re met with a situation like what is depicted in this meme, like what you just admitted to.

Though this can often lead to harm – like being a bit rapey online and forcing women to see that most men don’t worry about their consent – that doesn’t mean that all men are bad because they were socialized a particular way, since it is something that can be resolved through communication and recognition. That most men, this site included, often react indignantly at the notion that they’re engaging in sexual violence even though they followed the rules, shows us that this is by no means a small issue. When I say “rape culture,” this refers to the prevalent cultural norms like this that, while not normalizing sexual assault explicitly, accept constructions of women, sex, and relationships that are conducive to devaluing women and their ability to give consent; therefore normalizing sexual violence.

So, yes, this is not inherently wrong in the context of an actual relationship with healthy boundaries, communication, and respect, but is harmful in the context of an internet meme that does not consider the possibility of harm in its messaging, and whose audience by and large holds such consideration in contempt as an indictment of their moral character.

Would be nice if you guys were less sympathetic to incels than you are offended by anything related to internalized misogyny.

Okay, so some good questions here that I’m glad to see on Lemmy.

So, objectification is one of those things I think men get more anxious about because they typically have less intuitive, lived experiences to understand where those boundaries ought to be assumed. Objectification is not itself inherently wrong; we are objectified when we have an assigned number for our driver’s license, and we often want to be sexually objectified by our partners, as you pointed out

People tend to be uncomfortable with the reality that the wrongness of objectification is something negotiated, not statically defined with clear lines that you could show in court. In one of my other comments, I said that this element is not necessarily an issue depending on the relationship. Yes, people have those discussions throughout a relationship (ideally), and if this was something established as appropriate, that isn’t much of an issue.

However, this is not two people in a relationship, this is an internet meme whose legibility is dependent on the assumptions and shared values of an audience. So, in that context, the fact that it is expected that so many of you wouldn’t take issue with this (and didn’t) is the problem. Women’s bodies are sexually objectified culturally, which means non-sexual contexts or attributes of their bodies are constructed as sexual, i.e. when men peep on their feet like they’re genetalia publicly, or when nakedness alone is considered sexual, despite that not being the case. Combined with the nuances of negotiated consent and the cultural norms of hetero relationships, that also means many (or most) cishet men do not even think about explicit consent when they’re met with a situation like what is depicted in this meme, like what you just admitted to.

Though this can often lead to harm – like being a bit rapey online and forcing women to see that most men don’t worry about their consent – that doesn’t mean that all men are bad because they were socialized a particular way, since it is something that can be resolved through communication and recognition. That most men, this site included, often react indignantly at the notion that they’re engaging in sexual violence even though they followed the rules, shows us that this is by no means a small issue. When I say “rape culture,” this refers to the prevalent cultural norms like this that, while not normalizing sexual assault explicitly, accept constructions of women, sex, and relationships that are conducive to devaluing women and their ability to give consent; therefore normalizing sexual violence.

So, yes, this is not inherently wrong in the context of an actual relationship with healthy boundaries, communication, and respect, but is harmful in the context of an internet meme that does not consider the possibility of harm in its messaging, and whose audience by and large holds such consideration in contempt as an indictment of their moral character.

Europeans love how fascist the US is right now, makes their professional fascism much more palletable.

I mean, yes, you have significantly more control over a vehicle you’re operating on the ground in spaces that are designed for those vehicles than you do as a passenger on a vehicle that is in the air. Remember when it was a common factoid in these spaces to point out that humans actually avoid collisions a significant amount of the time, to the point that even a 95% avoidance rate of driverless tech would be insufficient to match them?

I don’t know if I’d call all of that an “illusion,” when you do literally have more control, it is easier to have control, and we know humans are actually exceptionally good at controlling those vehicles despite the number of collisions. I get what you’re trying to say, like, we attribute car collisions more to individual responsibility and action that what it might merit given the variables, but I think that’s a different discussion from why we get a bit more upset about machines we have basically no control over potentially killing us along with a hundred other people at a time.

Very funny to come across this organically after you just got pissed at me about pointing out misogyny in a different thread. Now you’re here just making fun of a woman’s appearance to say another guy is wrong to find her hot, which is also fucked up and objectifying.

Bit of a pattern developing here, rare to see it that close together without looking for it.

Maybe, I’ve got a few dudes angry at me on the other thread for pointing out the rape-culture vibes of the original. So, probably gonna get a few more of those throughout the day.

(i did)