To frame this precisely: do you think that distinctions between cis-homosexuality/bisexuality/heterosexuality, trans-homosexuality/bisexuality/heterosexuality, and other gender-specific or gender-exclusive sexual orientation labels are necessary, or should we keep it minimal, or even abolish labels completely?
And just to make everything clear, I have to disclose that I’m NOT part of the queer community, though I try to be as allied as humanly possible (I have three trans friends [two gay trans males, one lesbian trans female], one demi-pansexual genderfluid friend, etc., and I support and help all of them in everything I can). So, precisely because of this, I want to learn and know more about your ideas, feelings, experiences, philosophies, and beliefs. As I know the queer community isn’t a monolith, I want to hear as many voices as possible so I can form more well-founded and well-informed opinions, questions, and actions. I equally support your rights and oppose all reactionary conservatives.
That said, and back to the question that opens this post as its title, I ask this because I’ve noticed that it is (or could be) a problem in queer discourse, semantics, and semiotics, and I want to know how different people try to solve it.
For example, I have mixed feelings because, on the one hand, I think that creating more specific labels could help both as a recognition of the different experiences and identities that constitute the queer spectrum, and in making communication clearer, respectful, clever, and less prone to errors, misunderstandings, misinterpretations, or conflicts (for example, I only like cisgender women, and I’m a cisgender male, but if I say that I’m heterosexual, I feel that it’s not clear if I like cis women, or if I like trans women, or if I instead like both kinds of women, without further explanation that’s not always possible, or a more specific term, and that could lead to a conflict of expectations). But at the same time, on the other hand, it feels like it over-compartmentalizes and over-atomizes something that’s not completely discrete (although it’s also not completely continuous), and can lead to division, or even to other kinds of exclusion and discrimination both inside the community and outside it.
I know this is not an easy problem, so what are your thoughts on this?
Please, keep this respectful, civil, and on-topic. To all the moderators of this space, I kindly ask you in advance that if this results in a conflict or a fight, please lock it.
Love and peace.
How about: The labels are available for those who want to use them to describe themselves, but they’re optional and we don’t label other people unless they’ve told us what labels they prefer?
This all-or-nothing crap serves no one.
This sounds fair, tbh, but I feel that it doesn’t solve the root problem of expectations conflicts. I like only cis women, and if a trans women doesn’t explicitly states that she’s not cis when we’re flirting or whatever, I would feel violated when I discover that’s not the case, specially when it comes to sex, not because I had anything against trans people, because I don’t, but because a basic layer of trust in any commitment, relation or even adventure was broken.
It would be the same if I, or someone else, only liked trans women or men, and one cis woman or man did not stated that, or any other case where someone expectations and limits were not respected.
But I know that’s also problematic to force everyone to comply with some laconic standard of transparency about something that might be taboo or a sensible topic on someone because of their ambient or because of their own internal conflicts, and because they can’t know if the person they’re talking with will discriminate them or if they will understand them.
It’s complicated, but I hope that a solution that balances both needs could be achieved.
Genuine question, but why does the woman have to state wether or not they are cis/trans, why can you not ask them? As it seems so important to you, would that not fix all of your issues with dating women?
Also in what way would they break any trust by not talking unprompted about their gender? The trust that you live in a dream world of only your preferred partners?
Genuine question, but why does the woman have to state wether or not they are cis/trans, why can you not ask them? As it seems so important to you, would that not fix all of your issues with dating women?
Tbh, I really didn’t consider that at all, and I now feel like a stupid for it lol.
Although, while that might also work, I don’t personally feel like it’s an option to me because I’m really bad at communicating IRL. I’m introvert and really, really shy.
I’m also really, REALLY clumsy and thus I know that even if I try to ask that with the greatest possible touch, it’s probable that the other person can feel uncomfortable or bad, and that my question could trigger a trauma, or a sensible spot in their own feelings and experiences. Also I feel like she then could start hating me, or looking at me with disgust.
But aside from my own insecurity, the biggest problem is what I said: for many that issue is a delicate thing, and I don’t want to cause problems or discomfort, I feel really fatal feeling that I’m causing someone discomfort that I most likely don’t deserve.
Great now that you know you could do this, why not ask your queer friends how they would like to be asked such a question? I am sure you can find an aceptable way to ask that. Also shouldn’t it be way easier for you task the uncomfortable question earlier instead of being unhappy or maybe even angry later?
Genuinely it seems it would help you alot to work on your shyness. Maybe a bit of therapy is not bad, genuinly therapy is often very valueable even if it is a struggle with beeing social. It can help alot with how you understand yourself and others, which makes communicating better and less stressing.
Thank you really much for the insights and the advice!
I’ll for sure put them into practice.
Oof, just noticed that I didn’t respond to this:
Also in what way would they break any trust by not talking unprompted about their gender? The trust that you live in a dream world of only your preferred partners?
I meant, I feel like there’s a form of basic trust in which other people will not lie to us or hide us something that would in one or another way affect us, nor deceive us. But, for sure, there’s also the thing that they have to protect themselves against bigots.
I mean I don’t exactly go around telling people about my families history with heart complications, but no ones yet accused me of decit, lying, or hiding anything over it (and that’s even safer to tell strangers than my gender!).
The argument kinda sounds a lot like what people say about ‘disclosing’ previous partners, like these are human relationships not business mergers, shits organic.
Identity has layers. Some say they are Europeans, some say they are wimbledonians. Doesnt hurt anyone to let anyone lable themself how ever they like. Only matters that we respect and dont hate one another. We’re all humans in the end of the day
What do you mean by “minimize/abolish”?
Absolutely the fuck not should we be “abolishing” any personal identity labels.
That doesn’t mean you can’t think some labels are excessive, even stupid. And it doesn’t mean you can’t tell a queer person to their face you won’t use their niche label. Just like they’re free to think of you as an asshole and even tell you to your face that they think you’re an asshole.
Frankly, people are always going to have questions, about themselves, about their feelings and identities,
so just as people are always changing, growing, experimenting it follows that the words, language, labels they choose are going to shift and grow and change
Also, in my experience labels are useful for putting words to biases, feelings, fragments of identity that can otherwise be hard, or scary to communicate. so when the labels someone chooses change, it can be less that they are changing as a person, but more that they’re more open to sharing a given part of themselves in a given context
So if we were to artificially limit what labels are accepted, we’re not reducing barriers by grouping like people together, we’re just limiting what any person could be willing to share about themselves in any given moment
Two questions (I am also a cis-het man if that matters for disclosure):
Where are you encountering so many of these labels that this is an issue? I’m guessing online and mostly in spaces (like many fediverse products) that encourage it.
What, specifically, do you see as the problem that should be solved?
Weird you addressing this specifically to the queer community without being in it yourself while simultaneously giving your own opinions a lot of space.
Ok, there are some big red flags in your question, but I’ll address the question first and the red flags after.
People should be free to choose whichever labels make them most comfortable and happy. There is no benefit to trying to police how people label themselves. And an ‘ally’ should definitely not be trying to give opinions on what is and is not the correct label.
Now to the red flags. I am going to extend you the benefit of the doubt, but these are things you should be aware of. You seem to have an issue with trans exclusionary language. Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Trying to create labels that are specifically exclusionary of trans people is harmful. I’m not trying to control who you find attractive, but making them some nebulous other is harmful.
Referring to people you claim are your friends as male and female is weird, and is going to get the hackles up on a lot of folks because that is the language frequently used by bigots.
Claiming some access to a community because you have a friend or friends in that community is a tired trope (e.g., my best friend is black). It doesn’t add anything to the conversation, and generally doesn’t make people trust you more.
Finally, your feelings on queer people’s labels is irrelevant. People have enough to deal with without their ‘ally’ questioning their labels. It doesn’t matter how specific or vague a label is, you will still need to communicate with any possible sexual or romantic partners. So that solves any issue of vague labels.
Labels are an approximation. There will always be people who don’t neatly fall into those labels. We can invent more labels to improve coverage, but no matter how fine-grained we try to get there will always be outliers.
But just because they’re an approximation doesn’t mean they can’t be useful. Many people take comfort in labels, even discover themselves through labels. No reason to take them away from the people they’re helpful to.
As long as we accept that labels aren’t perfect and don’t force them on people who don’t want them, it’s okay for labels to be imperfect.
I’m curious how your LGBT friends respond when you ask them this.
Treat each person with basic respect, and you’re fine. Labels are individual, not everyone likes them but some folks feel better with them and that’s valid too.
Putting an opinion on other people’s identities is where it crosses into problematic territories.
Just like religion; “I can’t do/am not something because of my identity” is fine. “You can’t do/be something because of my identity” is not.
Listening to your IRL LGBT+ pals will guide you right, and remember also a lot of the microlabel discourse is heavily skewed to be online. A handful of self selected randos on the internet anywhere isn’t going to be representative of a whole-ass community (myself included!)
Define ‘basic respect’.
Because it’s going to vary a lot depending on people’s preferences, backgrounds, and etc.
Personally I don’t see LGBT+ people as monolithic in anything… they are just people. They all have their own biases, hatreds, preferences, etc. And plenty of LGBT+ people hate other LGBT+ people for stupid reasons. I find the concept of LGBT+ as some sort of ‘bloc’ utterly weird, and if you look at like data about it, it isn’t really a unified group in anyway.
I’ve never seen many commonalities in belief or behaviour of LGBT+ people. If you break it down further, yeah, sure, there are.
“Basic respect” as in, how you would treat everyone else. Don’t be a dickhead, but don’t feel like you need to bend over backwards just because someone isn’t cishet either.
That’s also why I made my caveat of “I’m also just some rando on the internet don’t take my word as gospel for everybody” lolol
so basically, you refuse to define the term…
everything you said is relative.
…Yeah? Whatever your baseline for interacting with a peer is, provided you’re not actively antisocial. Not sure what the problem is here
your words have no meaning, that’s the problem.
No labels
But I just bought this label maker …
