regular group meetings - go or don’t. If you don’t like your meeting, find or make one you do like. Anybody saying different is wrong. There’s nothing in the big book that says you have to go to meetings. Good meetings are good. Bad meetings are bad.
social coercion tomodify behavior and create co-dependence on the group - It’s real simple, “don’t drink”. But if that hasn’t been working by itself, modifying one’s behavior is in fact the goal. “Coercion” and “co-dependence” should not be a part of it.
“Spiritual but not religious”… but actually being very religious. Before meds this was pretty much all there was. Groups are pretty varied as to how they handle this. But again, if your group is too Jesusy for you, or otherwise not your jam, find a different group. Anytime someone talks about Jesus or “God” I always think “Okay, good to know: don’t talk to them about that”. The only point is to allow that maybe your standard thinking patterns maybe aren’t the best authoritative source on how to not drink. Mostly because everyone got there by thinking that.
the removal of personal agency. No idea what that’s supposed to be. Are you referencing the “surrender” part of being alcoholic? If so that’s a truly misleading way to say it.
targeting vulnerable and desperate people This should never happen. It’s always wrong, never endorsed, never intended, never supported by anything about AA. Yes, people do it claiming to be AA but that’s the thing - it ain’t. Very specifically.
There’s nothing in the big book that says you have to go to meetings. Good meetings are good. Bad meetings are bad.
I should have added another bullet point: “adherents lie about their cult”.
In any case, you’re not wrong that the Big Book doesn’t expressly say meetings are required. And no, I didn’t say that it did, either. Both the Big Book (and subsequent publications,) as well as literally every AA group strongly encourages meeting attendance, emphasizes the need for community and unity.
But if that hasn’t been working by itself, modifying one’s behavior is in fact the goal. “Coercion” and “co-dependence” should not be a part of it.
But it is part of it. that is, in fact, the largest part for why the meetings happen. That it’s ostensibly for benevolent reasons doesn’t make it less manipulative, or that the members or whatever are any less dependent on the whole.
“Spiritual but not religious” … but actually being very religious. Before meds this was pretty much all there was. Groups are pretty varied as to how they handle this. But again, if your group is too Jesusy for you, or otherwise not your jam, find a different group. Anytime someone talks about Jesus or “God” I always think “Okay, good to know: don’t talk to them about that”. The only point is to allow that maybe your standard thinking patterns maybe aren’t the best authoritative source on how to not drink. Mostly because everyone got there by thinking that.
And now that the nature of addiction is better understood, and the nature of it’s treatment is more effect, perhaps then your cult should just go away and let secular systems take over. The 12 Steps, though, are inherently religious. the first step requires admitting/accepting that one cannot change by one’s on self. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11 all invoke good to make the change that we are, AA teaches us, powerless to make on our own, and #12 requires the proslytization of that god.
the 12 Traditions don’t make that any better, either.
and there’s been a fair number of court rulings finding specifically that AA is indeed a religious organization. (DeStefano v. Emergency Housing Group, 2014; Jackson v. Nixon, 2014; Hazel v. Crofoot, 2014; Thorne v. Hale, 2009) Most of those lawsuits centered on whether it was appropriate for the government (or government funded entities) to coerce attendance,
the removal of personal agency. No idea what that’s supposed to be. Are you referencing the “surrender” part of being alcoholic? If so that’s a truly misleading way to say it.
AA teaches that individuals are powerless to change themselves, that is inherently a removal of personal agency. for fucks sake…step one is:
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
When people speak of religious trauma, and especially “christian shame”; this is what people are talking about. that inability, that inadequacy is deeply harmful.
targeting vulnerable and desperate people This should never happen. It’s always wrong, never endorsed, never intended, never supported by anything about AA. Yes, people do it claiming to be AA but that’s the thing - it ain’t. Very specifically.
AA targets alcoholics who are desirous of becoming sober. They recognize it as a problem, which is great. Many who seek help with that, though are vulnerable. Desperate to make a change, willing to do almost anything, and easily manipulated.
This is an inherent aspect of AA’s religious nature. It’s ingrained into the structure. It’s fundamentally manipulative, and sleezy. And sure, the purpose may be benevolent. There certainly are people leading AA groups that absouletly only want their members to attain sobriety. but this inherent manipulate nature, this targeting of vulnerable people, and the leadership roles create a power dynamic that is attractive to certain kinds of people.
And those kinds of people aren’t benevolent. It’s inevitable that something lie Brendan Carr’s AA sex cult happens. It’s inevitable that there will be hundreds of others using that power dynamic to take advantage of, and abuse, the vulnerable people coming to those meetings.
And there is nothing that can salvage that problem, because AA only works by manipulation, and by removing peer pressure, and by stripping agency from vulnerable people, and creating a dependence on the group itself.
I should have added another bullet point: “adherents lie about their cult”.
Oh, I see, it’s like that, huh. Okay well I acknowledge your agenda is without good faith, and we’ll get to calling each other worthless pieces of shit shortly. I should have added “Don’t start no shit, won’t be no shit.” So let’s go.
Both the Big Book (and subsequent publications,) as well as literally every AA group strongly encourages meeting attendance, emphasizes the need for community and unity.
Goddamn, you’ve cracked the fucking secret code of a recovery group - to . . . meet . . . as a . . group!. Holy shit it was staring us in the face the whole fucking time! Diabolical. Look, you wanna latch on to some poor bastard and make your significant problems theirs to work out, go for it but they’re much harder to come by. Meetings usually let anyone in, and most even list when other people are gonna be there. Chilling!
“Coercion” and “co-dependence” should not be a part of it.
But it is part of it. that is, in fact, the largest part for why the meetings happen.
You lying sack of shit.
coercion /kō-ûr′zhən, -shən/
noun
Power or ability to coerce. \
The application to another of either physical or moral force. When the force is physical, and cannot be resisted, then the act produced by it is a nullity, so far as concerns the party coerced. When the force is moral, then the act, though voidable, is imputable to the party doing it, unless he be so paralyzed by terror as to act convulsively. At the same time coercion is not negatived by the fact of submission under force. \
Actual or threatened force for the purpose of compelling action by another person; the act of coercing.
Codependency
In psychology, codependency is a theory that attempts to explain imbalanced relationships where one person enables another person’s self-destructive behavior, such as addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement. Definitions of codependency vary, but typically include high self-sacrifice, a focus on others’ needs, suppression of one’s own emotions, and attempts to control or fix other people’s problems. People who self-identify as codependent are more likely to have low self-esteem, but it is unclear whether this is a cause or an effect of characteristics associated with codependency
You’re saying this is what the meetings are for huh? Fuck you. You go to a meeting, you hear people talk, you decide if any of it means anything to you. Oh, You went to a meeting where some asshole stared you down and told you you needed to get on your knees and pray? Tell that shithead to shut the fuck up! If that works for them great - if that works for you, great - but if not, tell them fuck no, and/or find a different meeting. It’s that fucking simple.
Shove your coercion and codependence up your ignorant ass, chief.
And now that the nature of addiction is better understood, and the nature of it’s treatment is more effect, perhaps then your cult should just go away and let secular systems take over.
Oh, absolutely the nature of its treatment is more effect, no doubt. I mean, who could disagree with that. The nature of addiction treatment is SO effect. It’s effect as fuck. That’s why there’s no more addiction. My “system” is secular as fuck, fuck you very much. Also, you keep calling it a cult, so why not eat shit and die?
The 12 Steps, though, are inherently religious. the first step requires admitting/accepting that one cannot change by one’s on self. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11 all invoke good to make the change that we are, AA teaches us, powerless to make on our own, and #12 requires the proslytization of that god.
Goddamn you’re a stupid sonofabitch so I’m not going to waste time on this with you, even though it is a super interesting topic. Your tepid, erroneous, and laughably poor understanding of the steps do not change the fact that they were written in 1935, that they evolved from earlier, explicitly religious similar sayings, or that they do in fact use the ol’ dog-spelled-backwards in them. Despite qualifying it immediately, that’s just too difficult to grok so let’s agree you’re an idiot and move on.
For anyone interested, the steps are written as:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
It sure helps to talk with other people but we sure as fuck can’t meet them, because that’d be a goddamned cult, so I guess we’ll just leave it there and hope your barest-flicker of attention will be enough to fully express what everything’s about without further question or ado.
the 12 Traditions don’t make that any better, either.
It’s true, 1952 wasn’t the secular watershed some had hoped but it’s interesting anyway.
and there’s been a fair number of court rulings finding specifically that AA is indeed a religious organization… . . Most of those lawsuits centered on whether it was appropriate for the government (or government funded entities) to coerce attendance
I’m sure the context for those suits was all about whether God could create a stone so heavy he himself couldn’t lift it, and also how a higher power of one person’s understanding is a perfect basis for a religion. Thank dog two people don’t have the same understanding - if they did and they were to, oh shit, meet! Oh it’s too terrible to contemplate.
religion /rĭ-lĭj′ən/
noun
The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe.
“respect for religion.”
Some people in AA got that, sure. Some people in actual fucking religionsdo not got that. Ain’t that a bitch. What’s a poor boy to think.
A particular variety of such belief, especially when organized into a system of doctrine and practice.
“the world’s many religions.”
This is what you’re stating AA is and it’s bullshit. You know how i know? Because there’s nothing about my understanding that applies to anyone else. We have a hellacious time setting feast days - we just can’t agree! How the fuck are we gonna get the t-shirts printed in time! Worst.religion.evar.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
I know you’re dumb as shit, but even you can’t believe that. Right? Don’t bother.
AA teaches that individuals are powerless to change themselves, that is inherently a removal of personal agency. for fucks sake…step one is:\
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
So, riddle me this Einstein: if step one is to say we were powerless over alcohol, and (let’s say, for funsies) we somehow remove that powerlessness, okay, who did that?. You wanna say that AA “teaches” that “god” did it, right?
Yeah, wrong again, asshole. Wrong again! Shit, you’re bad at this.
When people speak of religious trauma, and especially “christian shame”; this is what people are talking about. that inability, that inadequacy is deeply harmful.
Well, yeah that’s super fucked up. And it’s not anything that AA “teaches”. Look, you clearly had a go of something with some fucked up shit and I’m sorry about that, but you’re painting AA with that brush and that’s just wrong. Just.wrong.
Any AA person that tells you you can’t do anything without God™ is absolutely full of shit. Just like you. You lying, ignorant fuck.
AA targets alcoholics who are desirous of becoming sober.
AA explicitly doesn’t target shit. Anyone that says otherwise is also lying. One of those Twelves you pretended to have read says so explicitly. You want to try AA to get straight? Many have and done. You don’t want to? Also good. Goodbye and good luck.
This is an inherent aspect of AA’s religious nature.
Shithead, you’re talking shit again. THERE AIN’T NO RELIGIOUS IN IT. Do Jews go to AA and start talking to Jesus? Hindus? Bhuddists? Agnostics, Athiests, Anarchists, Arachnids, Applebees? All secret undercover Jesus freaks in the warm bosom of seekrit-forced-meeting-AA huh? Fuck. Stop being an idiot.
this inherent manipulate nature, this targeting of vulnerable people, and the leadership roles create a power dynamic that is attractive to certain kinds of people.
Sure, we call them fucking assholes and we don’t associate with them. Just like regular non-seekrit-forced-undercover-jesus-religion life. You’re not wrong, there are people in AA that want to tell you who to date, what meds are ok to take and how to pray real good, and my advice, as was advised to me, is stay the fuck away from those people.
You think they’re not in your “modern, secular, very effect” treatment programs? GTFO. You have a much harder time staying away from them when you paid $35,000 to them and promised to live there while they judge your ‘progress’. Shit, in AA you just say
because AA only works by manipulation, and by removing peer pressure, and by stripping agency from vulnerable people, and creating a dependence on the group itself.
Goddamn, dude whatever the fuck happened to you sounds terrible. But that’s not how AA works. That’s not how it’s written, that’s not how it’s practiced, that’s not anything I’ve ever heard or seen as part of any AA expeeience I’ve heard about.
So I’m sorry whatever it was was like that, but you’re talking shit about AA. Pure shit.
Tap for Yeah but
regular group meetings- go or don’t. If you don’t like your meeting, find or make one you do like. Anybody saying different is wrong. There’s nothing in the big book that says you have to go to meetings. Good meetings are good. Bad meetings are bad.social coercion tomodify behaviorand create co-dependence on the group- It’s real simple, “don’t drink”. But if that hasn’t been working by itself, modifying one’s behavior is in fact the goal. “Coercion” and “co-dependence” should not be a part of it.“Spiritual but not religious”… but actually being very religious.Before meds this was pretty much all there was. Groups are pretty varied as to how they handle this. But again, if your group is too Jesusy for you, or otherwise not your jam, find a different group. Anytime someone talks about Jesus or “God” I always think “Okay, good to know: don’t talk to them about that”. The only point is to allow that maybe your standard thinking patterns maybe aren’t the best authoritative source on how to not drink. Mostly because everyone got there by thinking that.the removal of personal agency.No idea what that’s supposed to be. Are you referencing the “surrender” part of being alcoholic? If so that’s a truly misleading way to say it.targeting vulnerable and desperate peopleThis should never happen. It’s always wrong, never endorsed, never intended, never supported by anything about AA. Yes, people do it claiming to be AA but that’s the thing - it ain’t. Very specifically.I should have added another bullet point: “adherents lie about their cult”.
In any case, you’re not wrong that the Big Book doesn’t expressly say meetings are required. And no, I didn’t say that it did, either. Both the Big Book (and subsequent publications,) as well as literally every AA group strongly encourages meeting attendance, emphasizes the need for community and unity.
But it is part of it. that is, in fact, the largest part for why the meetings happen. That it’s ostensibly for benevolent reasons doesn’t make it less manipulative, or that the members or whatever are any less dependent on the whole.
And now that the nature of addiction is better understood, and the nature of it’s treatment is more effect, perhaps then your cult should just go away and let secular systems take over. The 12 Steps, though, are inherently religious. the first step requires admitting/accepting that one cannot change by one’s on self. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 11 all invoke good to make the change that we are, AA teaches us, powerless to make on our own, and #12 requires the proslytization of that god.
the 12 Traditions don’t make that any better, either.
and there’s been a fair number of court rulings finding specifically that AA is indeed a religious organization. (DeStefano v. Emergency Housing Group, 2014; Jackson v. Nixon, 2014; Hazel v. Crofoot, 2014; Thorne v. Hale, 2009) Most of those lawsuits centered on whether it was appropriate for the government (or government funded entities) to coerce attendance,
AA teaches that individuals are powerless to change themselves, that is inherently a removal of personal agency. for fucks sake…step one is:
When people speak of religious trauma, and especially “christian shame”; this is what people are talking about. that inability, that inadequacy is deeply harmful.
AA targets alcoholics who are desirous of becoming sober. They recognize it as a problem, which is great. Many who seek help with that, though are vulnerable. Desperate to make a change, willing to do almost anything, and easily manipulated.
This is an inherent aspect of AA’s religious nature. It’s ingrained into the structure. It’s fundamentally manipulative, and sleezy. And sure, the purpose may be benevolent. There certainly are people leading AA groups that absouletly only want their members to attain sobriety. but this inherent manipulate nature, this targeting of vulnerable people, and the leadership roles create a power dynamic that is attractive to certain kinds of people.
And those kinds of people aren’t benevolent. It’s inevitable that something lie Brendan Carr’s AA sex cult happens. It’s inevitable that there will be hundreds of others using that power dynamic to take advantage of, and abuse, the vulnerable people coming to those meetings.
And there is nothing that can salvage that problem, because AA only works by manipulation, and by removing peer pressure, and by stripping agency from vulnerable people, and creating a dependence on the group itself.
Oh, I see, it’s like that, huh. Okay well I acknowledge your agenda is without good faith, and we’ll get to calling each other worthless pieces of shit shortly. I should have added “Don’t start no shit, won’t be no shit.” So let’s go.
Goddamn, you’ve cracked the fucking secret code of a recovery group - to . . . meet . . . as a . . group!. Holy shit it was staring us in the face the whole fucking time! Diabolical. Look, you wanna latch on to some poor bastard and make your significant problems theirs to work out, go for it but they’re much harder to come by. Meetings usually let anyone in, and most even list when other people are gonna be there. Chilling!
You lying sack of shit.
You’re saying this is what the meetings are for huh? Fuck you. You go to a meeting, you hear people talk, you decide if any of it means anything to you. Oh, You went to a meeting where some asshole stared you down and told you you needed to get on your knees and pray? Tell that shithead to shut the fuck up! If that works for them great - if that works for you, great - but if not, tell them fuck no, and/or find a different meeting. It’s that fucking simple.
Shove your coercion and codependence up your ignorant ass, chief.
Oh, absolutely the nature of its treatment is more effect, no doubt. I mean, who could disagree with that. The nature of addiction treatment is SO effect. It’s effect as fuck. That’s why there’s no more addiction. My “system” is secular as fuck, fuck you very much. Also, you keep calling it a cult, so why not eat shit and die?
Goddamn you’re a stupid sonofabitch so I’m not going to waste time on this with you, even though it is a super interesting topic. Your tepid, erroneous, and laughably poor understanding of the steps do not change the fact that they were written in 1935, that they evolved from earlier, explicitly religious similar sayings, or that they do in fact use the ol’ dog-spelled-backwards in them. Despite qualifying it immediately, that’s just too difficult to grok so let’s agree you’re an idiot and move on.
For anyone interested, the steps are written as:
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
It sure helps to talk with other people but we sure as fuck can’t meet them, because that’d be a goddamned cult, so I guess we’ll just leave it there and hope your barest-flicker of attention will be enough to fully express what everything’s about without further question or ado.
It’s true, 1952 wasn’t the secular watershed some had hoped but it’s interesting anyway.
(Cont’d)
I’m sure the context for those suits was all about whether God could create a stone so heavy he himself couldn’t lift it, and also how a higher power of one person’s understanding is a perfect basis for a religion. Thank dog two people don’t have the same understanding - if they did and they were to, oh shit, meet! Oh it’s too terrible to contemplate.
Some people in AA got that, sure. Some people in actual fucking religions do not got that. Ain’t that a bitch. What’s a poor boy to think.
This is what you’re stating AA is and it’s bullshit. You know how i know? Because there’s nothing about my understanding that applies to anyone else. We have a hellacious time setting feast days - we just can’t agree! How the fuck are we gonna get the t-shirts printed in time! Worst.religion.evar.
I know you’re dumb as shit, but even you can’t believe that. Right? Don’t bother.
So, riddle me this Einstein: if step one is to say we were powerless over alcohol, and (let’s say, for funsies) we somehow remove that powerlessness, okay, who did that?. You wanna say that AA “teaches” that “god” did it, right?
Yeah, wrong again, asshole. Wrong again! Shit, you’re bad at this.
Well, yeah that’s super fucked up. And it’s not anything that AA “teaches”. Look, you clearly had a go of something with some fucked up shit and I’m sorry about that, but you’re painting AA with that brush and that’s just wrong. Just.wrong.
Any AA person that tells you you can’t do anything without God™ is absolutely full of shit. Just like you. You lying, ignorant fuck.
AA explicitly doesn’t target shit. Anyone that says otherwise is also lying. One of those Twelves you pretended to have read says so explicitly. You want to try AA to get straight? Many have and done. You don’t want to? Also good. Goodbye and good luck.
Shithead, you’re talking shit again. THERE AIN’T NO RELIGIOUS IN IT. Do Jews go to AA and start talking to Jesus? Hindus? Bhuddists? Agnostics, Athiests, Anarchists, Arachnids, Applebees? All secret undercover Jesus freaks in the warm bosom of seekrit-forced-meeting-AA huh? Fuck. Stop being an idiot.
Sure, we call them fucking assholes and we don’t associate with them. Just like regular non-seekrit-forced-undercover-jesus-religion life. You’re not wrong, there are people in AA that want to tell you who to date, what meds are ok to take and how to pray real good, and my advice, as was advised to me, is stay the fuck away from those people.
You think they’re not in your “modern, secular, very effect” treatment programs? GTFO. You have a much harder time staying away from them when you paid $35,000 to them and promised to live there while they judge your ‘progress’. Shit, in AA you just say
Goddamn, dude whatever the fuck happened to you sounds terrible. But that’s not how AA works. That’s not how it’s written, that’s not how it’s practiced, that’s not anything I’ve ever heard or seen as part of any AA expeeience I’ve heard about.
So I’m sorry whatever it was was like that, but you’re talking shit about AA. Pure shit.