People saying this is purity testing or similar, this is showing a difference between neo-liberal politics and their believers versus actual leftists or socialists. The term “liberal” has been misconstrued to mean left when it certainly is not. I want the USA to stop invading other countries, I want them to still provide aid for countries but preferably not military. Ukraine would be a situation we would provide military aide to so they can repel fascist invaders.
that ticked me off so much. If the west as a whole went full bore in assisting Ukraine between Feb of 22’ and Oct of 22’ that invasion would be in the rear view mirror and russia would have so much egg on its face the Russian people probably would have ousted Putin in a full blown revolt. But here we are. I suppose on the plus side we now know how effective drone warfare is. I wouldn’t expect less from the nation that invented the incendiary Pigeon as a viable method of breaking a siege. Always thinking outside the box, those Ukrainians ;)
I’d take those instead of more awful people. And it can also be the first step for someone to achieve class consciousness.
Those are the awful people, they believe what they’ve been told is socialism with no question. These are the people that are politically illiterate
No, the evil people are taking all that money and giving it to the stinking rich to empower fascists and do even more imperialism, you impregnated shoe pebble.
This comment section:
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OP is deleting any comments that disagree with their purity test.
This is a socialist community, not one for welfare capitalism. This isn’t about purity testing, it’s about adhering to definitions.
What you call purity test the rest of the civilized world call accountability. You support a party of fascists and they need to be held accountable. Oh, and this comment is getting deleted as well as your others since you can’t read.
Probably liberals that cannot read the rules.
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Trash in trash out.
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Don’t make perfect the enemy of good
“genocide is good”
“Turbo genocide is better”
Ok. You said it
tiny steps in the right direction no steps back
That’s the problem with incrementalism. It only marches to the right.
One tiny one?
There are no purity tests, there is socialist and then there are right wing fascists, Democrats fall within that category.
False dichotomies are stupid
But, but, but, the revolution has to be violent and there has to be blood!
They couldn’t even give up their slaves, give black people rights without blood, you think they’ll allow their power to be taken peacefully?
Do you think we have no blood now? That homeless aren’t dying in the winter, that CEOs aren’t denying 90 percent of claims?
You are right, so keep destroying the building before anything can get built.
Because that has worked SOO great so far.
When you alianate people, they shut you out.
That’s how that works, it’s not rocket science.
But tankies are so stupid, they think, “Oh, they’ll come around, I just need to be a bigger asshole/gatekeeper.”
Destroying which building? A building that facilitates taking the spoils of imperialism? A building that exploits poverty for the sake of shareholders, resulting in, by some estimates, 200,000 deaths every year? A building that enacts more violence than it would take to deatroy?
Yes, definitely destroy it before it gets built. That’s hardly a question.
Communists are not the reason capitalism is failing.
Oh, hey, Cowbee.
Like always, coming in and deliberately trying to twist things around into something that wasn’t said or implied. (You need to change things up a bit.)
No one remotely said or implied that communism is the reason capitalism is failing. No one was defending capitalism either.
We were talking about how dumbass tankies come in, gatekeep, and act generally toxic to anyone that doesn’t toe the line.
Very similar to what you just did.
Thank you for proving my point.
You sarcastically suggested that communists are “destroying the building before anything can get built,” right? Maybe I misunderstood and the building is actually some nebulous “progressive movement,” rather than capitalism itself. In that case, sorry for misunderstanding, but it’s still a bad point IMO. Communists attacking social democracy as ineffective isn’t destroying the movement, it’s trying to push people towards more effective practice.
Go back to reddit
Something’s gotta give. The liberal approach doesn’t work. All they do is collude with Republicans.
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Infighting suggests that Democrats and leftists are the same thing. They’re not.
Oh, I found my first Lemmy hugbox. Nice. Glad you guys didn’t all stay on Reddit. Enjoy your safe space. Wrong ideas must be censored.
Shutting down discussion famously increases acceptance of new ideas. /s
Wrong ideas that provide protection and cover for fascists should be censored. The main issue is liberals don’t care about censorship, they only care about being told no.
Liberals never come into leftist spaces for discussion, they come in demanding we support them, that we’ve got it all wrong, and we are the reason they are huge piles of steaming shit.
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There is no infighting because Democrats are not leftists. The fighting that you see is Democrats trying to demand that they are leftists, and not right wing Republicans, like their history shows.
I think the struggle is that while the party and establishment dems that run it are basically republican lite. A lot of people still in the party, who don’t fit or agree with the establishment, haven’t come, for whatever reason, to the realization that that is what the democratic party has become.
I think for some it’s a laziness issue. For others it’s not having enough resources to understand. And for some it’s probably a hesitancy to no longer ally with a party they have long been a part of. In the US, parties tend to be like factions that people dedicate to instead of a means to a political end.
Also most Americans still think left and liberal are the same thing. So there’s that hurdle too.
that is what the democratic party has become.
This is who they’ve always been
Is there any other reason to live?
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There is no divide and conquer because Democrats are not socialists. They’re not even left wing.
I’m not talking about democrats. You’re hitting more stray targets than intended ones
And what exactly are you talking about? Leftists are not divided. Liberals that think they are socialist coming into leftist spaces is what’s viewed as division.
I was speaking on socialism in Europe, which you also take exception to!
And don’t lie, I’ve been in more pissing matches with Leninists than I can count.
European social democracy isn’t socialism. This isn’t about “purity,” it’s because they objectively have welfare capitalism and depend on imperialism. Workers do not control their governments, nor is public ownership the principal aspects of their economies.
I recognize that, I just don’t foresee any flow of political power, economic force, or societal preference that will lead to it. I’d prefer it, but I’m a realist so I joke instead of hinging my hopes on ideal circumstances
Socialism already exists in a number of countries, and the method to establishing it is well-studied. A working class party needs to be formed, educate itself, and struggle alongside the rest of the working class to help bring them to higher levels of political development and class consciousness. When crisis hits, the working class party can help take it from a localized struggle to a pointed struggle against the system itself.
European liberals are right wing too
I was speaking on socialism in Europe, which you also take exception to!
Social democracy is not socialism. The “Nordic model” is not socialism. Those are just capitalism with a larger safety net, which is paid for by the spoils of imperialism.
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There is no division because Democrats are not left wing, they are right wing fascists.
Virtue signaling used to be called principles
I wouldn’t say that it’s universal, but there are an enormous number of exceedingly exclusionary people here. People who’d rather be right than advance their goals. Once again, it’s far from universal. I met my first few anonymous people who were actually interested in self reflection on lemmy. It’s a place that’s open to ideas, which is why I hate these posts. They close people down. It’s the paradox of tolerance, in reverse
Our goals do not include a coalition with those defending capitalism
It’s not not that.
It might be an ultra ploy to divide and conquer…
There is no divide because Democrats are not left wing.
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No that’s just logic.
Socialist enough would be dismantling the legal framework that allows corporations to exist, and replacing that with something that decentralizes the distribution of wealth so that funnels of greed are a thing of the past.
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Or establishing legal frameworks that promote (or require) worker cooperatives/socialist enterprises where shares/decisions are redistributed amongst the workers comprising the enterprise (but not the whole of society).
That’s petty bourgeois capitalism, not socialism. This isn’t about purity or anything, socialism is about the working class owning the means of production and distribution, not creating petty bourgeois cooperatives.
I’m betting you were silent when Bill Clinton kicked millions off of welfare. When Biden kicked millions of children off SNAP.
That’s a necessary but not sufficient part of socialism, is what the meme is trying to say.
I would take either at this point
Hey bro, you got it wrong. You need to censor people who want what you want in a different way. That will make them want to help you achieve your goal.
Does that not make sense to you? Don’t think about it too much. If you don’t think about it at all, and ban thought from your mind, you can join the mod team here, sign up today!
There is something to say about pushing for just getting the boot off the workers neck. Many become complacent, it also continues to exploit the global south, many lose sight of that
What would be an example of this?
The biggest example is the Nordic model. It’s not the least bit socialist. It is 100% capitalist that uses the exploitation of the global south to benefit their citizens. It is also liberals to think things like fire departments, schools and taxation a socialist.
Then where’s an example of “real” socialism to you?
In the modern day, the PRC, Vietnam, DPRK, Laos, and Cuba.
Next you’ll tell me Robert Owen is not a socialist, or that reform can not happen with socialism.
Any actual socialist that’s read a single word of theory knows reform is a failure
Authoritarian socialism for the win baby
Keeping the trash out isn’t authoritarianism
It’s a flavour of if. But I’m not against it, I think people are ignorant enough they need a little kick in the ass from time to time, myself included.
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Democrats and Republicans are believing the entirely wrong things. So wrong to the point that someone like Trump was a viable candidate.
Jackass.
