“You were right to push back - that runway was in fact occupied”
because we havent had enough air disasters in the past 2 years.
Absolute worst possible use of an LLM: something safety-critical.
I’m sorry, you’re right. I should not have directed that plane to the runway with the two planes that have already crashed into each other.
It’s fine the first two have obviously canceled each other out leaving the runway clear.
Well, here’s hoping they are in charge of Air Force One.
That’s the end of me flying. The wife and I will now take extra days, get a rental and have us a road trip
8,750 salaries worth of money betting AI can do this with no actual evidence it can.
I can’t see a single thing that could go wrong with this.
I don’t see ANY comments in here where it’s clear that people read the fucking article.
“Har har, AI and ATC, I’ll make a funny joke about flying will be unsafe”. Yes, it’s expected, but if you actually read what this is - it’s going to issue predictions about how busy particular times are, basically.
ZERO use of the AI in the tower by ATC to control aircraft in any way.
Sure, they might try to introduce such a thing - at which time your jokes will actually apply!
it’s going to issue predictions about how busy particular times are, basically.
and for that it’s somehow worth $875M.
ZERO use of the AI in the tower by ATC to control aircraft in any way.
For now.
That’s only step one. Just wait.
I can at least live with your comment. lol.
I don’t necessarily disagree, but we’re certainly not there yet - on this particular front.
I don’t see ANY comments in here where it’s clear that people read the fucking article.
Average Lemmy user: Get baited into a headline about AI and immediately bitch about how it’s the worst thing in the world. No nuance, no legitimate discussion about the issues, just rage.
It definitely seems like the 100% anti-AI NO MATTER WHAT people hold the majority. heh. Which is only annoying every so often, as I mostly agree with them. Just not totally agree. heh
There are a small number of cases where the current batch of AI tools are ok and fine. Certainty is the enemy, as per usual.
In theory, an automated system should be able to outperform humans at a rote task like this under the right conditions. However, I don’t imagine throwing LLMs in the mix without redesigning the whole system for automation is going to end well.
We’re fucked.
So a quick search suggests air traffic controllers make around $75,000 annually. $875 million would pay the salaries of 11,666 air traffic controllers for a decade at that wage.
Even considering inflation, training, medical, etc that $875,000,000 could pay for thousands of hired Amemricans for a decade. Republicans are literally the worst.
$875 million would pay the salaries of 11,666 air traffic controllers for a decade at that wage.
You’re off by a factor of 10 here. It’s either a year of wages for 11666 controllers or 10 years of wages for 1166 controllers.
Ah dammit, ty
$75,000 annually
The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports about double that as the median pay ($148,080).
I still agree with the rest of your math and think the investment is worth it, but just clarifying the number.
the other issue is aparently it’s hard to get people to do that job.
It’s hard to find people with the requisite skills who can tolerate the shit working conditions and occasional extended periods of intense stress. I had a job that required me to interact with a group of controllers. Almost all had the cork in too tight. I met several who later died of heart attacks in their late 40s or early 50s.
I do believe its considered top 2 most stressful jobs, not hard to see why
I know someone who’s atc. He described it as “very very slow Tetris, but when you misplace a piece someone dies.”
I was listening to live ATC broadcast this evening for O’Hare ground control.
Jesus tapdancing Christ, no idea how they do it.
All you hear is a steady stream of instructions like “j1234, approach 10L and hold, then sierra sierra golf tango tango alpha” which are “directions” for pilots to taxi to a gate.
They are ripping them off at hyperspeed, no mistakes. The audio quality of some pilots is just terrible but somehow they know wtf they said. They have dozens of planes on the ground at a time, organizing the chaos of them all without blinking. In the hour I listened, I heard one dude doing it all, though I think there are two different ground controllers.
Planes blocking taxiways, pilots misunderstanding instructions, someone is taking too long to push back from the gate and they’re making changes and adapting on the fly.
Holy shit y’all.
Listen for yourself and try to figure it out. Audio: https://www.liveatc.net/play/kord1n2_gnd_in.pls Ground mapd: https://www.flightaware.com/resources/airport/ORD/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM/pdf
Good luck.
The audio quality of some pilots is just terrible but somehow they know wtf they said.
That is in my experience highly dependent on what kind of radio/antenna is used to record the live broadcast, it’s orientation and it’s location.
I have an Icom IC-R6 radio scanner, even at the airport with line of sight of the infrastructure you can still get a terrible reception if the angle of the radio is wrong, the antenna is wrong or you have parked in the wrong spot.
People might reconsider if we give them a 30hr work week, but still pay the full salary. Some jobs are just harder and time worked doesn’t equal effort. I’ve had 2 day stints that should have paid me more than the entire preceding month!
What I’m trying to say is that the people who run America are unwilling to pay to do it right.
It’s people like the ATC’s who run America. You are talking about the owner class who sit on their verandas drinking ice cold lemonade shouting “whip them harder and they’ll get more work done”
I bet they could get more to do it if they paid more. You could give out a lot of raises with $875 million.
they could, but i think initially like requiring to apply to the training school, and then there is a waitlist, and you have to train in okhloma specifically is more than discouraging people.
A couple more schools across the breadth of the country a decade ago would have done more today than $100 billion of AI ATC would do today.
Which is a low bar admittedly, but the point has to be made.
Seems better yes, in EASA airspace ATC is around 100k when starting your career and 220k near retirement.
I bet FAA is within those numbers.
the workload is also pretty brutal, so it might not be worth it in the end, and the ability to go the training school also is competitive.
Entering the school is a bit annoying but you don’t need anything else besides having a brain and resisting stress. Not knowing if you will succeed is stressful but that goes for any school, and this one is paying you to attend it, not the other way around.
The workload is easy, I’m at the EU airways crossroads and working ATC is easy, I feel like I’m always on days off and I work less than 5h a day. Honestly it’s one of the best career you can do besides being rich and not working.
Maybe it’s because I’ve been doing that for more than a decade so it’s natural now.
And mostly, Europe isn’t FAA, I can’t tell for them but from what I’ve read it’s a shit show over there.
The problem is finding qualified people to be controllers. IiRC, something like 3000 apply for certification per year and only 150 make it.
This position should really pay alot more than it does
and its also a long waitlist, plus 2 years of schooling and you are training in only in one state for it.
Is it a long waitlist? I hadn’t heard that before, but its possible. I know they just recently shortened the process.
Maybe more people need to know retirement is at 50.
the problem with ATC, its competitive, and its long waitlist, with tons of DQ-ing conditions, and its like 2 year school in okhaloma(where the school is). presidents since reagan fired them all, really dint seem that interested in fast tracking or bringing more people on board for the job.
“The worst” and here I’ve been calling them racist inbred cunts for lesser reasons.
You’re absolutely right to push back, I should have landed that plane before it ran out of fuel. Would you like me to explore options for funerals?
You have been added to the Best of Lemmy: https://sh.itjust.works/post/67115517
I generated a letter to the loved ones. Let me know if you want it to be less personal:
I hope this letter finds you well. Yesterday’s plane crash wasn’t just a terrible accident—it was a horrible mistake…
The fuel is the load bearing component of the equation.
Worth stating plainly: arrival at the airport is gated on the fuel quantity being more than zero.
Or at least being within glide capability. Would you like me to calculate a glide ratio for your current flight configuration?
I guess the next time I want to travel internationally I’ll take a train to Canada and fly out from there.
I think they should test it out on the private jets first. Ya know, to make sure it all works great.
The proles get to roll the AI killbot dice. The humans will be reserved for private jets.
That should go swimmingly
Only if there’s a body of water near the terminal.
so yes!
Well, honestly, this might be one of the use cases where these “AI” tools could be useful. Pattern recognition is something they are actually great at accomplishing. That said, I am still skeptical and concerned that the algorithms are being designed and deployed mindfully.
this will not work with ATC, or even cars in general too many things can go wrong.
we can’t even get self driving cars right yet, I’m not sure ATC is going to be any better (certainly not on whatever pittance the government will fund it). 99% reliability will probably be easy, it’s that last 1% that could take decades to fix.
We’ve had self flying and landing planes for years though. You can’t really compare controlled airspace to the chaos that is operating on the ground.
I’m still skeptical they won’t fuck it up, but this should be a manageable problem for ai.
Yet pilots still fly and land manually. And if those systems work so well why haven’t we had self-controlling air traffic for years too?
We’ve had self flying and landing planes for years though
Because none of it relies on any kind of AI. It doesn’t have to make decisions, it just flies programmatically. If you commanded it to fly into the ground it would (has, Germanwings crash). Autopilot wont even respond to a collision avoidance resolution advisory.
That’s different than AI tho
That’s an example of a computer being utilized in the way ut should be (with predictable outcomes
People don’t realize that LLMs are not computers.
LLMs are software that turns a computer (an incredibly powerful tool of reliability and precision) into an imitation of a room temperature IQ person who thinks they’re an infallible genius because they can search google.
Determinism is one of the greatest properties of a computer and should be the gold standard of any program. Guess what LLMs fundamentally can’t do?
Make a profit?
It’s one of those things that can absolutely be done with care, effort, and money. But we lack a government that will put any of those toward the project. And the private sector will actively undermine it to scrape a few more pennies off the top.
