Vote Democrats if there is no progressive alternative. But always primary progressives in Democratic primaries.
Lemmy users in socialism.ml actually define Putin as progressive (I wish I was joking)
EDIT: look at them all brigading me below. PUTIN SUCKS and North Korea is an authoritarian shithole!
This is the way, at least until we get rid of First Past the Post and other Ordinal voting systems.
Score, STAR, or Approval would all make primaries unnecessary, and also reward people for honestly voting their preferences. Which is sort of why there’s so much pushback against them.
But since the people benefitting from the current setup are the ones who’ll have to agree to change it and create the new system, there is absolutely no hope of ever peacefully ending the current status quo.
Except for the fact that pretty much every single progressive in Congress or on the ballot is in favor of some form of electoral reform.
But like you said, obviously nothing at all can be done, you know, besides voting for them.
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How’s that revolution coming along?
I support voting jackass, just not for genocidal neoliberals and DSA entryists. I know this will be shocking to you, but we have leftist parties in my country.
Maybe you can form one as well? Is that too much to ask of Americans?
But you would support Russian and Chinese genocide of Ukrainians and Uyghurs, respectively.
Lmao, do you actually think that “Uyghur genocide” means that China is carpet bombing Xinjiang 🤣
“Genocide” in China’s case means cultural genocide. It stands in for forced assimilation. China isn’t bombing every single school and hospital in Xinjiang and massacring hundreds of thousands of Uyghur people dumbass. And I don’t support the treatment of Uyghurs in China, nor do I support Ukraine’s invasion.
And this comment was really eye-opening. You American libs have made the word ‘genocide’ so fucking meaningless that you just throw it around for every single thing, including regular invasions. You didn’t watch the video I sent you of an actual genocide, did you?
The entirety of the Muslim world agrees that what China is doing is absolutely not genocide. Cultural or otherwise.
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Looks like tankies and bots are working overtime.
What an erudite rebuttal. You sure disproved what I said with the absolutely no information you provided.
I assume the fact that you didn’t actually address either point is due to the fact that you know what instead dnwas correct and you’re salty your cable news talking heads haven’t given you the right talking points to get around that?
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Yeah, you clearly don’t have any actual rebuttal. I’d guess that you know I’m right and it pisses you off, so you’re lashing out. But I really don’t care very much. If your next response doesn’t actually address anything I’ve said, then you can fuck off to the block list and everyone who reads this later can know for absolutely certain that you agree I’m right, you just hate that fact.
Nice Ad hominem, how about you actually engage with the argument instead of retreating to the liberal psychosis of the “Everyone Who Disagrees With Me Is A Robot” conspiracy?
(Dude this thread is 3 days old)
And people are still commenting
Nice ad hominem. How about saying that to those in Uyghur concentration camps.
??? Your comment is an actual ad hominem, do you not know what the words you use mean? An ad hominem is not just “when someone insults you” it is when someone dismisses the argument presented based on the perceived value of the character of the person making the argument - As you did when you failed to engage with the actual argument given and instead talked about some psychotic “bots and tankies”. You have to actually present an argument in order to for me to hit you with an ad hominem, which you’ve failed to do, which is what I pointed out.
Now you then also go on and move the goalposts. You and I have not discussed whatever it is you’re trying to discuss, in fact we’re discussing your failure to engage with someone who did discuss that with you. So why would I want to? You’ve so far shown you’re completely incapable.
The time to argue and complain about candidates is during the primaries. When a candidate for a party has been chosen you vote with the party. Out system is the way it is and no amount of protest votes are going to fix it. Do not vote 3rd party in the general election.
No, do NOT do this. This just gives a boundary to the left and none to the right of the Democratic Party.
Always vote for “progressives” (or ideally socialists) in the primary. If you’re in a red state, consider even voting and running in the GOP primary instead.
If your candidate loses the primary, VOTE AGAINST THE PARTY IN THE GENERAL. Make it apparent that they either move to the left, or they lose.
And - crucially - join and form organizations that publicly state they will do exactly this.
VOTE AGAINST THE PARTY IN THE GENERAL
No, no, and no. Shit like that is how we got Trump. Stupid protest votes are not what’s needed right now.
Does it suck? Yes. Do you just have to hold your nose and do it? Yes. But voting against things or not voting is what put us in this situation.
The primaries are the time to push things left.
Not just no but hellfuck no.
If you’re a safe vote for the party, there is no reason they should ever even consider what you want when deciding on policy.
The primaries are the time to push things left.
The General is the time to punish sliding right.
Protest votes are exactly what’s needed right now.
Shit like that is how we got Trump
This statement tells me that you still don’t understand why Trump was a viable candidate (remember, wannabe fascist strongmen have run in the Republican primary since forever. They didn’t used to get the time of day from GOP primary voters).
Shit like voting Blue No Matter Who even after the Clintons sold the party body and soul to Wall St is how we got Trump. Ending Welfare as we know it is how we got Trump. Running on codifying Roe and abandoning the idea before the inauguration party hangovers have cleared is how we got Trump. Refusing to prosecute torture under Bush II and extending the Bush Tax Cuts is how we got Trump. Passing “insurance reform” that didn’t create a public option and did give private health insurance corps 5 consecutive quarters of record profits is how we got Trump. Using Ukraine as a pawn to fight a proxy war with Russia is how we got Trump.
I could go on, but if you refuse to see it with all that then there’s no hope for you anyway.
BlueMAGA, now as into conspiracy theories as their red bretheren, and for the same reasons.
I’m sorry you’re worried that the Democrats strategy of doing nothing might not pay off, and that endorsing genocide still is such a loser issue. But that doesn’t mean the people refusing to share your party loyalty over any common sense are part of a conspiracy, foreign or domestic.
Let me say as a person who used to care about elections for self interest and humanitarian reasons but at this point kind of no longer gives much of a shit about elections other than being fueled by self interest and a new sense of deep and bitter spite:
Voting for a party doesn’t equal party loyalty. Pointing out that one party is significantly worse than the one you think people should vote for isn’t party loyalty either. You can hate both parties and still vote for one and have good reasons to do so and encourage others to do the same with good reasons to do so.
Either you are an imbecile and don’t know what words mean and shouldn’t be posting and embarrassing yourself or you are a scumbag liar pretending to not know what words mean. In either case everyone should ignore you.
To what end?
Let’s frame it this way,
A Mafia is in town (the ultra wealthy that can avoid laws and punishment)
You can either vote for the mafioso that gives out SOME gifts to the community WHILE STILL CONSOLIDATING POWER AND TRANSFERRING WEALTH, or, they can send their enforcers out to make sure that they can FORCIBLY CONSOLIDATE POWER AND TRANSFER WEALTH.
“Heads I win, Tails you lose”
Hakeem Jeffries is secretly meeting with Kushner. That is the mark of a treasonous pedophile supporter and the unmasking of the controlled opposition party.
Voting democrat will only continue the charade
In the end we’re all dead. Right now I’d like to live in a world not run by fascists. Simple as that. People lives, including my own and yours, would be better if fascists were not in power.
Additionally, Hakeem Jefferies is not the only democrat. There are many democrats and some are worse or better. While essentially every republican is a monster or at best an unhinged lunatic.
Jefferies also is, even as a empty husk of a politician, better than an ideological fascist. Because if socialists were in power, Hakeem Jefferies would be incentivized to work with them to maintain power, while in the current instance, he is incentivized to work with fascists.
Jefferies is not an ideologue. He’s a power loyalist.
Right now I’d like to live in a world not run by fascists.
The democrats are also fascists, so voting for them would get you nowhere
Average Trump XO:
“Both sides same tho”
I’m glad you think that a meaningless Easter message is worth the lives of hundreds of thousands of people in Gaza, along with any electoral future for the left in the US.
You can just go out and say you don’t actually care about policies that affect people’s lives, it’s faster. Roe overturned, ICE on the streets, an incomprehensible amount of lifesaving aid to the most desperate people in the world cut, but “both sides same”.
How are the Palestinians doing under Trump?
Hint:
Roe overturned
On June 24, 2022, the Court issued a decision
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobbs_v._Jackson_Women's_Health_Organization
Blaming principled leftists for the Dems complete lack of will to even try to protect reproductive rights is such a reach.
All the left-kickers can ever do is blame leftists for their own failures. Somehow it’s leftists’ fault that the Democrats sat on their hands and let Republicans shove justices through during the Trump admin, it’s the leftists’ fault that RBG didn’t retire, it’s the leftists’ fault that Democrats didn’t pass laws to make abortion legal nationwide. Somehow Republicans can do everything they want instantly and Democrats can do nothing, but God help you if you say they suck shit.
The palestinians are being genocided under Trump, just as they were under Biden. That doesn’t really matter to you though, you see genocide as a fringe issue that you can use as a cheap dunk. You somehow only started to pretend to care when your team wasn’t in charge.
Biden deported more people than Trump, Kamala ran on being harsher on immigration than Trump, ICE was made permanent by Obama.
USAID was a front for regime change, as well as an aid organisation. It is debatable whether it did more good or bad.
Roe was overturned under Biden, and he was warned before it happened, yet did nothing. Roe could have been codified under Obama, yet it wasn’t. The Supreme Court is packed with right wing justices because the democrats allowed it to be + hubris. They wanted RGB to retire under a Hillary presidency, yet she was already decrepit as fuck beforehand.
Somehow this is the lefts fault.Roe overturned
That happened under Biden. You know, when people did exactly that Vote Blue No Matter Who nonsense you’re advocating?
ICE on the streets
Again, the Democrats have supported ICE and continue to fund it.
You’re literally providing examples of why you’re wrong.
but “both sides same”.
Only one who has said that is you. The point exactly is that the Democrats are similar enough to the GOP to where you should not support them as they are.
Who appointed the justices?
Is ICE doing the same thing this year as they did 2 years ago?
Are you this wildly misinformed, or are you jerking my chain here?
Who appointed the justices?
Who let them be appointed? Who did fuck all about it? Who, hubristically, assumed victory and thus let yet another geriatric sit forever until she died? Who did nothing to get their justices in, when they could’ve? Who used NONE of the tools available to them to get rid of the justices that were there?
Is ICE doing the same thing this year as they did 2 years ago?
No. They’re doing the same, in a more blatant manner, which makes you notice and care.
Ahh yes because the common people all voted for the Supreme Court justices lmfao
The comments are heartening. The parties are more alike than they are dissimilar. One is a better class of criminal, for sure, but neither is worth supporting carte blanche. There are a handful of elected Democrats who are worth supporting, but the longer they are exposed to the DNC “moderates,” the more they expose themselves to the weakness that most humans succumb to.
Show me a Blue No Matter Who voter, and I’ll show you someone who willingly gives their time and money to a billionaire who owns a pro sports team that already has ripped off the community they live in for millions of dollars in ballpark deals.
You’re right, and that’s why I vote Trump for a third term! They’re all the same after all.
Talk about perfectly exemplifying the people the post is making fun of…
Pre-election?
You have to be american to believe this because for others, dems and reps are like 99% hitler and 99.5% hitler
One of those ticks is “genocide” (millions of people).
Another is “corporations enslaving 1-3 trillions animals in torturous conditions their entire lives”.
Another is “corporations torturing 2-6 trillion animals to death every year”.
Another is “omnicidal climate change” (billions of people and many trillions of other animals).
The 2 sides are not the same, but certain existential and unethical issues actively supported by both sides mean that some people don’t want to vote for either of the evil sides who crossed clearly psychotic lines, and prefer to instead vote for decent Green people like Nader.
The rest of the ticks on the other side are things like “eww fat”, “has a bad spraytan”, “looks gross”, “sounds dumb” and “worse administrator”.
That’s it. That’s the practical difference between the two parties of fascists. One is more polite and better at managing empire. That’s not enough of a difference for me.The issue with a dominant two party system is that voting for a third party gives power to the most centralised party.
I doubt many republicans are going to vote third party. If too many non republicans vote third party the republicans win easily.
This is a well known political mechanism.
The more effective action is to vote for the party than can actually win from the party you want least.
My personal opinion, vote for facism light and then when they win absolute riot and grill them and start protesting over the fact that they are facism light. People always seem to forget the second part. As an other commenter in this post quoted, people who vote for lesser evil are quick to forget they still voted for evil. There should be no celebration, no rest.
Create to much dissent under the trump regime and it will collapse in a civil war. Because they dont care about the optics and they secretly want a civil war as a reason to become a dictatorship.
Create enough dissent under democratic leadership and you strengthen the third parties who dissent with you on a local level and force the dems to either adapt more progressive policy or they risk that civil war which will end their power to which optics are important.
The way you create dissent is by making a party lose elections till it changes.
The Democrats got that in 2024. They do NOT seem to have understood the message. Given that they’ve held the same geriatric, ineffective and neoliberal leadership, they are not intending to understand.
So your choice is to either destroy the party as it currently stands, or give up any illusion of lesser evil. Because going to hell slower matters only if you intend to change direction at some point.
I do absolutely understand and agree with this meme, its a variation on the ratchet effect.
But its based on the winner feeling vindicated because they win.
My proposal is to take away that feeling. Make them lose by winning the election by making them the target of non stop dissent and rightfull anger.
This seems to never happen, that is the problem, but i still think it has more chance then a third party actually getting elected.
Their should be a no kings protests the day after the election regardless of party and ideally every single day after, regardless of party.
Gril them to the point they don’t even want to get elected anymore.
The democratic party is one to fight. But the time to fight is when they are in charge, not when they are the alternative for a party that will masacre civilians if they gey the opportunity.
I support burning down the white house to the ground (in Minecraft) regardless of party, but recommend doing so when its the lesser oppressive people that inhabit it cause you have more chance to get actually get out alive.
Do what you must that you believe is right though. Good luck!
But the time to fight is when they are in charge, not when they are the alternative for a party that will masacre civilians if they gey the opportunity.
This is nonsense. When they are in power, that you’ve helped them get, is exactly when you have lost ALL leverage over them.
See 2020 for a real life example - just look up the name Neera Tanden.
The alternative to a democrat win remains a Trump win in which your chance to win a fight against the system is significantly lower.
I don’t like that is the case but its the mathematical truth that the one to win this cycle will be one of the 2 major fascist parties.
I love to wake up in world where i am wrong.
The alternative to a democrat win remains a Trump win in which your chance to win a fight against the system is significantly lower.
Nobody in the mainstream gave a shit about the genocide in Palestine until Trump came into power. Nobody gave a shit about the inflated police budget until Trump came into power. Nobody gave a shit about the pursuance of brinksmanship until Trump came into power. Nobody gave a shit about the protests that were shut down under Biden, or the many infrastructural issues or the fracking or the credible accusations of rape or the foreign interventions or all the other stuff.
Not in the mainstream media and not in the popular zeitgeist.Trump coming into power seems to be a catalyst for mobilising a bunch of amoral dumbass liberals like OP. The conditions to create change are much better now.
As the other poster put, history doesn’t seem to support you. We can see that even in voting amounts from 2020 and 2024 - and the things that the Democrats even felt the need to lie about in the primaries.
Even if your ONLY aim is to see the Democrats win, you should be opposed to the current leadership.
Yes, this OP is an uptick in bullshit fascism.
TIL “Be against the literal fascists” is bullshit fascism
They’re both fascists.
It is when your solution is to support the other group of fascists.
For anyone who needs to hear it, that’s not an excuse to not criticize whatever your side is.
While that’s true, there’s a strategic time where it’s not the best idea to do so, as your criticism will get weaponized.
Around here there’s a political ad featuring someone who lost a loved one to gun violence. He thought he was going to be used in an anti-gun-violence PSA, but instead it was a campaign ad blaming ‘the other guy’ for the criminal that killed his loved one, which he very much disagreed with.
So between July and election day on election years, it’s time to rally behind the best practical option. Conversely, primary season on such years are a critical time to get engaged on the nuance of the party.
Be better than your opponent
No.
As someone else put it well, the primary is the time you push to the left.
The general is the time you punish going to the right. And that’s the only time you are given for that.
Jokes on you, I’m not eating the shit sandwich, I’m eating the vomit sandwich!
Unironically this. The only reason people are smugly refusing to decide (and trying to convince others to abstain too) is they’re insulated from the consequences, often via privilege or distance.
If anyone truly had to take a bite, they’d choose the vomit sandwich.
first of all, I am not your mom and you should decide if you vote, and for who like an adult.
Also, to what end? Clearly voting doesn’t work, it has been decades of this destructive push and pull and americans are seemingly “happy” with it, the entire world gets fucked over continuously by the usa regardless. If anything the accelerationists might have a point and voting for trump is the good thing to do as he is speedrunning the destruction of american hegemony.
Clearly voting doesn’t work
This is the biggest nugget of untruth that builds your snowball of confusion.
You look at one or several elections going poorly and you decide democracy is a failed premise.
Imagine applying the same logic to getting a good job, a best friend, or any other venture with low odds of success per attempt.
you decide democracy is a failed premise.
Did i say that?
Clearly voting doesn’t work
The more papers you fill to choose your overlord the more democratic it is, filling the dot next to the name “mechasuperduperhitler 2000” is hecka democracy
Nice straw-man!
Seeing as you seem to be arguing in bad faith for a while now (gaslighting, straw-man), I won’t be wasting my time with you any longer. Enjoy the block!
Isn’t it always pre-election? Every two years and all.
Meanwhile, the reason that the claim is so prevalent is because it is so true.
bOtH sIdEs are anti-union, anti-labor, pro-corporate, and pro-billionaire.
US workers have lost income and standard of living for over FIFTY YEARS. You will hear this for the rest of your life, because it’s an indisputable fact.
The USA needs a labor party, the Democrats are no labor party.
You are depicted in this meme, and you don’t seem to see it.
you are in a dystopian hell and you think you can vote your way out of it.
You are entirely missing the point.
You hear or see “Lesser Evil” and you think they’re saying “Good.”
Is the issue literacy? Is it stubbornness? Plain ol’ propaganda to destabilize the US?
propaganda to destablise the US
i think the issue is you still think your warmongering, nazi country still has a hope at not being evil.
That’s an impressively inaccurate read of what I wrote. Why are you wasting time working miracles in interpreting text when you could use your talents elsewhere?
Funny to accuse the other of strawmanning in a comment section under the most ridiculous caricature of what a liberal would like the leftist critique of their favorite color of genociders to be.
I know reading comprehension is abysmal in the US and online, but Jesus christ. If youre going to use fallacies as a rhetorical shield, then at least use them correctly. They’re not arguing against a strawman, they are making a conclusion on your beliefs, based on what you have written.
I think you need to read up on what a “conclusion” is, and how you draw one. Its pretty reasonable to assume, from what you wrote, that you think the United States, as a political entity, can be saved. The adjectives are clearly the author indicating their own personal opinion about the United States.
If you wanted to accuse the other of some sort of rhetorical fuckery, then the obvious one is changing the subject.But if we’re doing fallacies then this whole argument is built on the back of a false dilemma.
I think the issue is you see the democrats as “lesser” evil, despite them being gleeful participants in genocide, climate change, “tough-on-crime”-prison-slavery, deportation, police states and everything else. The only two practical differences are that Democrats are more competent administrators of empire and they’re less rude about bombing brown people.
They might be the lesser evil to Americans but to the rest of us they’re just evil.
Which is more dangerous to detonate, a grenade or a nuclear bomb?
Which is hotter, 60C or 100C?
It’s like you’re bending over backwards to refuse that the words “more” and “less” exist in English?
I really do need to get around to blocking lemmy.ml, apparently.
Whats more dangerous, a nuclear bomb or a nuclear bomb that’s kind of rude about doing the same stuff as the other one?
Its like youre bending over backwards to avoid discussing the fact that the two parties are the same, because this gross caricature where there is a measurable difference is easier for you to engage with morally and intellectually.
Whats more dangerous, a nuclear bomb or a nuclear bomb that’s kind of rude about doing the same stuff as the other one?
If you genuinely don’t believe open fascism is worse than tepid failure to properly address it, we’re never going to see eye to eye.
You believe that voting for the GOP is exactly, literally the same as not doing so? That’s just wrong, and you know it.
Again, it’s funny that 100% of the ridiculous arguments like this are coming from lemmy.ml. It’s so rare that a reasonable person comes from there.
Oh hey, you’re the one making ridiculous arguments against me above too. I guess I should just block you for now.
Wow you’re right, the MEME says they’re wrong so they must be wrong, never mind the actual reasoning they presented!
That’s definitely not the extent of the logic, but good joke.
Fair nuff, I guess you didn’t claim that was the reasoning
Now that we’ve established you’re not talking to me in bad faith like several others have been:
My point, like the meme’s, is that there’s a stark difference between the terms “Lesser Evil” and “Good.” The DNC is clearly the Lesser Evil contrasted against the open march to fascism that the GOP has embraced. That doesn’t mean they’re The Good Guys Above Reproach. Note that Side A still has tally marks of Bad.
Ironically, the people who puff out their chest and declare they are enlightened enough to vilify the DNC for being just as bad as the GOP view the world in a Disney, Good or Evil sense. “DNC did a bad? Then they are Evil and must be fought no matter the cost.” Politics has much more nuance than that, and is usually all about making alliances with people you don’t like with to tackle issues you both agree on. I sincerely doubt any of the people viewing politics in such black and white terms apply that same logic to people they know, otherwise they’d be murdering people for cutting them off in traffic, or going no contact with family because they forgot to send them a birthday present. Maybe they do believe it, so they’re chronically online rather than engaging with flesh and blood humans in meat-space. Maybe they’re just propagandists and don’t actually believe what they write.
When the DNC is right, I’d work with them. When they’re wrong, I’d work against them.
The US primaries are over, save for runoffs I’m not aware of. Painting the DNC as just as bad as the GOP now serves only to drive voter apathy, which is a huge boost to GOP victory odds as we’ve seen in the past, especially recently. It’s also been proven to be a huge motive of international election interfering interests, e.g. Russia and China; anyone who hates progressives, minorities, democracy, etc. stands to gain from the GOP winning.
TL;DR: The meme puts the above logic much more succinctly, and OP’s title fills in most of the gaps.
Why yes, I have noticed the pre-election uptick of posts like this designed to prep the masses to slavishly vote for whatever do-nothing Biden/Kamala/Hillary joke candidate the establishment will be choosing for us next time. If Kamala won we’d all be having brunch right now, right?
You know how you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.
It’s better to take constant bites, no matter how small, than vomit up everything you’ve eaten in 20 years while you imagine being done.
You can keep waiting for perfection, but it probably won’t be here before damnnation.
So step one is you talk about how you shouldn’t complain about having to eat the elephant and nothing can change and that people shouldn’t complain. Then you force feed people shit while giving the elephant a gun.
Whining and shaming over people being unhappy with the bullshit response the Democrats have in response to the kleptomaniac fascists running the country isn’t helpful.
People should be fucking pissed and they should be doing the work to help their communities. Food not bombs, getting involved locally. Voting for anyone that is for ranked choice voting.
What they don’t need to do is constantly wag their finger about how you have to vote blue no matter who after the blue just lost the easiest fuckig election in history
Complain all you want, just keep nibbling! Two small steps forward is better than a giant leap back, even if you prefer a leap forward.
I don’t prefer a leap forward, the planet fucking requires one. It is melting lol
And the Democrats are like a pause in the walk forward and rarely an actual step. They just put a nicer face on their horrors and usually do better for the imperial core
I’m not an accelerationist but trump has really got a lot of people to wake up to the fact that it truly is socialism or barbarism right now.
And the Democrats are like a pause in the walk forward and rarely an actual step.
How is that not objectively better than a leap backwards?
I’m not an accelerationist but trump has really got a lot of people to wake up to the fact that it truly is socialism or barbarism right now.
Which is great if you’re not one of the victims of the barbarism I guess. Personally, I don’t have the stomach to sacrifice others for political gain.
Personally, I don’t have the stomach to sacrifice others for political gain
Unless those others are brown kids in the third world, Black men in prison, or undocumented, amirite?
Bcs if you’re still seriously saying that voting for Kamala Harris was objectively better than abstaining or voting third party then you absolutely were willing to throw those people under the bus for political gain.
Once again, the people who are going to suffer either way do not affect my choice. But this administration has been objectively worse for the undocumented, so I’m not sure what your point is. Abstaining and voting third party helped this anti-immigrant administration win.
voting for Kamala Harris was objectively better than abstaining or voting third party
It objectively was. Neither abstaining nor voting third party helped those people, and now more of them are suffering than would have under the Harris administration. Based on the logic of abstainers/third party voters, they’re the ones throwing people under the bus to try to “send a message” to the DNC.
Which is great if you’re not one of the victims of the barbarism I guess. Personally, I don’t have the stomach to sacrifice others for political gain.
They said as they bemoaned people not being willing to vote for a genocidal fascist (who probably wouldn’t increase the price of gas as much).
Seems like you’re very comfortable with sacrificing others for political nothing though.A genocidal fascist was going to win either way. This one seemed more genocidal from the outset, and the last two years corroborates that.
It’s not about the people who would have suffered either way, I can’t presently do anything about that but I’m trying. It’s about all the extra people who are suffering now: immigrants in death camps, victims of slashed social programs, the dead Iranians on the other side of that expensive gas.
I can’t save Palestine right now. I lack the leverage. But I could’ve helped save many of the others, and you could’ve too. It works better together. Don’t get distracted by the horrors you can’t fix, focus on the ones where you can at least slow the bleeding
And how has that strategy been working in America since the 80s for you? Let me guess, we just need to suck it up for a few more decades… Just a few more candidates we don’t really like. How many years before we get to vote for someone that we actually like, in your estimation?
Vote in a primary. This election is either the rise of the DSA, or they’re seen as unelectable and curtains.
And if I follow your strategy, I’m seriously asking here - how many years before I get to vote for president for someone that I actually like? Like let’s say Mamdani - how long do you think it’ll be before I can vote for someone like him for president, according to you? I don’t wanna be called a perfectionist or a dreamer here, because I’ve specifically picked a real elected person.
2 years, in theory, if enough people spend it organizing and crafting a real movement too strong to ignore, big enough to kick down the doors and make it happen. Longer if they don’t, never if they won’t.
If you are being genuine, this might be a help to you: https://chapters.dsausa.org/
Thanks for at least allotting some probability to me being genuine. The one thing I can’t stand these days is people acting like everyone who disagrees with them is doing it in bad faith.
I am not sure what exactly you’re suggesting, though.
But we also know that neoliberal Democratic Party elites offer a tepid vision of “inclusiveness” that refuses to challenge the oligarchic nature of U.S. society.
https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/history/#founding
Seems more in line with what I’ve been saying than what you’ve been saying, honestly. It’s certainly agreeable to me, but if this is an organization you feel a kinship with…I can’t help but feel that the kinds of memes I often see you posting are contrary to their goals. Unintentionally, I believe. Honestly, most of the left-divisive content I see in Lemmy comes from you in particular, to the point that when I see some of these things I think “did Godric post this? Oh, yep”.
I’ll always keep reconsidering what actions I can take. Hope you’ll do the same
I’m suggesting you find your people and drag the american people left in a tangible way. I will take any useful ally in the fight against fascism, cheers to a moment of understanding!
I firmly believe"Electorism bad" and “both sides bad, a month before election day” jagoffs are useless or stooges for redcaps, so I will continue to mock them. I genuinely hope they prove me wrong and do something constructive.
Gas would probably still be under $3/gal, so I’d be more willing to drive and get brunch, yes.
Also the brunch wouldn’t have salmonella, and the side salad wouldn’t have explosive diarrhea.
But you’re right. It would be pretty bad. I don’t this she would give me a free pony, nor would she dissolve the state in favor of an anarcho-syndicalist commune.
Meanwhile all the people in America who have suffered systematically for decades would continue to suffer systematically. No denying things would have been great under Kamala for people who were privileged all along.
Correct.
Of course, they’re still suffering under Trump, and now they get to pay twice as much for gas. Maybe the explosive diarrhea provides an alternative, rocket-powered form of transportation?
I’m also sure that you give a great many fucks about the poor and the downtrodden. The bigliest of fucks.
I give more fucks than you since I was willing to make my life worse in order to create the possibility for an eventual actual turnaround in the Democratic Party. And lo and behold we now have the most progressive representation in nearly a century in New York - even then with an uphill battle against the establishment. Meanwhile you were only willing to vote for the person that would maintain your personal comfortable status quo, everyone else be damned. Keep on projecting “bigly”, clever boy
Well, it would have also maintained the status quo for the people of Iran. Which by extension would probably have maintained the status quo for people in Lebanon, Syria, parts of the West Bank…ya know, greater Israel.
I’m sure those 100-150ish elementary school girls in that one Iranian school, not to mention thousands of others, are moved by your suffering.
Moved rapidly into multiple pieces, then collected and moved to a graveyard, that is. They thank you for your sacrifice, certain in your heroism.
Wait, I thought the suffering of third-worlders was NOT supposed to be a deal-breaker for Kamala fans? 😂
No, I think you just made that up to justify creating more suffering at home and abroad.
I hope you’re proud.
If the people suffering systematically is a constant between the two options, then how is it relevant to the choice? Rational people make choices based on the differences in outcomes between the options.
Haven’t we seen a significant uptick in the systematic suffering of historically suffering people under this administration? Between “the status quo” and “worse than the status quo”, isn’t the status quo the best short term solution if you actually care about the people who are suffering? Is their suffering reduced in any way because you make a principled stand against the status quo?
It seems like you’re just feeding marginalized people to fascists in exchange for getting to say you didn’t vote for the neo-lib. I don’t see how that helps the marginalized people, seems like something a privileged person would do because they can afford to not care about the result of elections.
If the people suffering systematically is a constant between the two options, then how is it relevant to the choice?
This is like saying “if my infected wound is going to sting whether I leave it alone or put disinfectant on it, then how is it relevant to the choice?” The answer is that one of the choices, while still shitty and possibly even more painful, creates the possibility for a better future despite the present.
Voting for the corporate neolibs IS what makes more fascist candidates viable. Not voting for them is what forces the party to offer legitimate opposition to fascism and representation of the lower class. Yes, abstaining makes things worse in the short term, in exchange for the possibility of making things better in the long term.
The only reason Trump was ever a viable candidate is because of people using your reasoning being unwilling to take that short term bitter pill for the last 40 years.
It seems like you’re just feeding marginalized people to fascists in exchange for getting to say you didn’t vote for the neo-lib.
I love when people trot out this argument, because it’s exactly what you’re doing, on a LARGER scale and in a subtler way than you accuse me of doing.
I didn’t skip voting so I could win some community respect. It’s not exactly a popular stance (unlike yours) in case you haven’t noticed. I did it despite the economic, safety, AND social consequences because I truly believe it was the only way to make the possibility of a better future.
The answer is that one of the choices, while still shitty and possibly even more painful, creates the possibility for a better future despite the present.
I have the right to decide to suffer the sting of disinfectant, it’s my body. I don’t have the right to condemn others for the sake of political expedience.
Not voting for them is what forces the party to offer legitimate opposition to fascism and representation of the lower class.
No it doesn’t. When has it ever done that? Typically it just pushes them right to try to get more centrists.
Vote for the leftists in the primary. That’s what forces them. You don’t appeal to them, you annex them.
Not voting is literally doing nothing. It is not the crystal clear communication signal you think it is, it’s literally nothing.
Yes, even on Lemmy, seems to be a lot more of that.
Probably because people who point out hypocrisy or ask a community to do better than the other side often results in them being echochambered out and Reddit mods love to permaban anyone who disagrees with their strict opinions.
And before you ask. No, that didn’t happen to me. I just really like raunchy ass porn.
In the last month, specifically? I don’t disagree with what you’re saying but it seems to be targeted, time-wise.
It’s also rather beside the point in the American two party system, with current hardline far right people in leadership. Both sides do commit atrocities, but the current administration is speed running the collapse of the world order.
It’s so funny that you think the uptick in critiques of Dems in the last month is specifically because the bot farms are spinning up and not because there’s an uptick in electioneering that the critics are able to visibly respond to
It’s not so funny that you ignore years of reports about people in other countries paid to post on social media.
It’s neither fully one thing or the other, but ignorance of foreign interference only helps them win.
Only Russians could hate Democrats, our true saviors.
I won’t say what I think about people who don’t understand basic logic, but I will say that’s an amazing leap of “logic” there, friend.
I think billionaire interference is more prominent than foreign interference. You have news stations, Republicans and Democrats all spouting the same pro-Israel, anti-socialism rhetoric.
Well, yes. It’s hard to see someone’s entire comment history in a thread, but if you stalked me, you will find me repeatedly railing against our oligarchs as the primary problem we must solve - wealth inequality is the primary problem in the US, all else stems from that or is related, imho.
But that has little to do with the comment to which I was replying. :)
I think it’s prettyyyy related. I mean what kind of comments are we even talking about against dems?
Not in near as great a volume as during the presidential years, but there’s the usual drum beat of ‘Dems bad so don’t bother cause it’s all useless’ type posts. Might be that I see less though having defederated the triad when I switched from Lemmy to Piefed.
Saved. This should not be as applicable to lemmy as it is.
Everyone knows that in a democracy the only two options are voting and firebombing Walmart. You can’t do both, and anyone who suggests otherwise is blue MAGA.
God that’s become such a hot term here lately. Particularly among the type of people who will go into repeating the same phrase over and over when they get shut down in an argument.
People on lemmy be like “your strategy of doing literally anything else pales in comparison to mine of voting for genocidal geriatrics” and then they go on and lose the election anyway
People join and support groups that take real action. Take the houthis for example. MLs by comparison can’t even fill out a ballot.
Isn’t it possible to ask some Dems to do better and maybe get rid of the geriatrics? It’s hard to include all that when pointing out to someone why “vote blue no matter who” or “vote left straight down the ballot” are not the best choices.
After all… We have “vote blue no matter who” and “vote left straight down the ballot” a few times resulting in Dems controlling the exec and leg branches which didn’t turn out so hot for a vast majority of folks.
The purpose of Vote Blue No Matter Who is just that.
Dems suck, don’t get me wrong, but there is no path to anything good through the GOP, and 3rd parties are essentially a waste.
The general idea is basically, push the Dems to a super majority for a few cycles so the GOP dies off, then split the Dems into a new Conservative (current Dems) and proper Progressive (Probably Dem Socs) parties.
Oh wow, sounds like a great plan, wonder why it has never panned out over the many decades of this talk.
Because too many people don’t have the patience or attention span to suck it up for an decade and “protest not vote” over stupid shit like Palestine/Israel being eternally at war or because a candidate didn’t campaign EXCLUSIVELY on giving trans people all the candy.
These issues are important, but maybe a bigger, more important issue is not letting the fucking Nazis take over. Because no one wins under the Nazis, not Palestine, not trans people, not women, not Hispanic people, not even white CIS asshole dudes in the end.
No one.
stupid shit
Yeah man, the modern day holocaust is just some silly little thing. And the Holocaust is just the only tiny little disagreement people have with the democrats. It definitely isn’t the straw that broke a very overburdened camels’ back.
Not letting the Nazis take over
Both parties are Nazis. You really seem to struggle with this. But then again, you are calling a genocide “stupid shit” and both-sidesing it, so you are pretty close to being one yourself.
There are plenty of people who claim they didn’t vote for Harris or didn’t vote at all, because she was kind of wishy washy on he stance on the whole thing.
Meanwhile Trump was openly stating he wants to bulldoze Gaza and turn it into a Dubai style resort for rich people.
These are not the same, and it’s fucking stupid that people seem to act like they are. Especially given the tidal wave of EVERYTHING ELSE the GOP have been openly pushing.
“Holocaust” or not, the GOP is bad for everyone. Especially everyone in the country.
And it is stupid shit. They have been going back and forth for decades and before that there was still fighting constantly in that space because everyone thinks they have exclusive rights to their stupid Sky Daddy homeland over everyone else. It’s just endless fucking religious bull shit wars. Don’t act like Palestine wasn’t also killing innocent people going the other way before. Today’s conflict doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
There are plenty of people who claim they didn’t vote for Harris or didn’t vote at all, because she was kind of wishy washy on he stance on the whole thing.
No. They didn’t vote for her because she was a fervent supporter of Israel.
These are not the same,
Yeah, one wears a shitty tan and the other laughs kind of funny. They both wanted to give billions to Israel, they both wanted to flatten Gaza, they both wanted to commit genocide.
“Holocaust” or not, the GOP is bad for everyone
Lmao you would have voted for Hindenburg.
And it is stupid shit. They have been going back and forth for decades and before that there was still fighting constantly in that space because everyone thinks they have exclusive rights to their stupid Sky Daddy homeland over everyone else.
Okay so you are either an ahistorical idiot or a liberal zionist. Next time you open your mouth, make sure you actually know what you’re talking about before you do so.
Don’t act like Palestine wasn’t also killing innocent people going the other way before.
There are no innocent colonialists. The palestinians have been driven from their homes, ruthlessly targeted for extermination, bombed, put in the largest open-air prison in the world, constantly surveilled, attacked by daily raids and so much more for decades. Them fighting back is not some wanton act of violence. It is a people defending itself.
Today’s conflict doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
Insane thing to say to equivocate the people being genocided with the genocider. Even more insane thing to say when the context is a decades-long slower-burning genocide.
But I guess you have to be insane to be a liberal zionist.
That’s why you vote in the democratic primaries, to do that thing you just said. Then you prevent republicans from getting power in the general. It’s not hard, but leftists would have to actually vote instead of just bitching online. You wonder why democrats don’t cater to leftists? Leftists don’t fuckin vote.
In twenty years Dems have only held a supermajority for like two months and they passed the ACA. Fuck outta here with your bullshit.
the aca was a Republican handout to insurance companies.
The aca improved the quality of life of the average American. The aca slowed down the rapidly increasing premiums insurance companies were rolling out. The aca prevented those insurance companies from denying or gouging for preexisting conditions or removing people from insurance for developing chronic conditions. The aca was a mess and far from perfect but it absolutely was a significant improvement to the status quo and a net benefit to every citizen. And always remember that it wasn’t better due to the policy of republican obstructionism. Don’t be a fuckin idiot.
This comment section right here is all the proof that there will be no salvation in November.
Every pig-ignorant savior is so absolutely certain that their ideologically pure solution is the only acceptable way to fix anything that everyone is going to cancel each other out and it’s just going to continue sliding towards the cliff edge.
Under NO circumstances attempt to learn ANY lessons from parliamentary coalitions who banded together to stop the hijacking of their governments by radical fascists despite sweeping policy disagreements. Everyone keep nitpicking every minute detail, make no compromises whatsoever no matter the costs, and make stupid, pointless, self-destructive, aggrandizing gestures so you can talk down to strangers on the internet, and enjoy the ride to hell.
from parliamentary coalitions who banded together
The US is not a parlimentary system. You’re failing to understand the situation from right off the bat.
Yes, kids, just keep doing the thing that created the problem and it’ll fix it any day now.
Hitler was elected. If I’m to take your implication correctly, you don’t think that vote happened or did anything?
You clearly aren’t taking my implication correctly, since it has no application to an election that happened almost 100 years ago.
But you also clearly don’t understand your own point either. Hitler was elected to a fairly low level legislative position, he was appointed as Chancellor by Liberal politicians, who found him a more agreeable alternative to the Communists when they couldn’t hold the Chamcellorship themselves. So the only thing you’re proving here is my point: Liberal will always choose to ally with Fascists against Communism, but never ally with Communists against Fascism.
You’ll never end the Neoliberal Status Quo by voting for a Democrat.
You clearly aren’t taking my implication correctly, since it has no application to an election that happened almost 100 years ago.
Ah okay, so there can be no lessons learned from history? That’s an interesting take I don’t think I’ve ever seen before.
But you also clearly don’t understand your own point either. Hitler was elected to a fairly low level legislative position, he was appointed as Chancellor by Liberal politicians, who found him a more agreeable alternative to the Communists when they couldn’t hold the Chamcellorship themselves.
Again, Hitler was elected. Rising to more power later is true, but you’re bending over backwards to miss my point.
Liberal will always choose to ally with Fascists against Communism, but never ally with Communists against Fascism.
I see you’ve literally never heard of the DSA in the US. Blind to history, blind to modern politics, all conveniently so you can push your propaganda. Interesting.
Ah okay, so there can be no lessons learned from history?
Going from “that specific thing I said and the specific election you brought up in response have nothing to do with each other” to that is quite the reach, even for someone deluded enough to think that voting for the Blue Liberals over the Red Liberals makes things better
Again, Hitler was elected
And again, that had nothing to do with Liberals elevating him because they prefer to ally with fascists against communists than the other way around.
But I take it back. There is one instructive takeaway from Hitler’s election that does seem relevant to the current circumstances:
Hitler was only able to be elected to that low level position because greedy capitalists had crushed the working class so hard that fascist strongman rhetoric became appealing to the average citizen.
Kinda like how the DNC has spent 45 years doing their level best to help the GOP gut the working class and reduce everyone who isn’t a billionaire to serfdom. In both cases, it’s the background radiation of Liberal collusion with capitalist greed that enables the rise of Fascism.
Going from “that specific thing I said and the specific election you brought up in response have nothing to do with each other” to that is quite the reach, even for someone deluded enough to think that voting for the Blue Liberals over the Red Liberals makes things better
I guess I don’t have to read further than this. If I recall correctly (because there’s been a lot of you and I’m not bothering to scroll up to double-check), I know your starting premise was that the DNC and GOP are literally identical, so it shouldn’t surprise me that you’re rephrasing that, but seeing you double-down was enough for me to realize I’m wasting my time with either someone who has been propagandized or is a propagandist.
Seeya. Another @lemmy.ml for the block list.
I guess I don’t have to read further than this.
I know words are hard for ShitLibs. But I don’t have the time to write a funny sketch and film it.
I know your starting premise was that the DNC and GOP are literally identical,
Nope. Never said that. I’ve always said they stay just different enough to give the gullible something to.argue over, as long as the points of contention are over things that don’t really matter to the ruling class.
I’m wasting my time with either someone who has been propagandized or is a propagandist.
Yes, you are. You should stop spreading the propaganda of the ruling class, it only serves to strengthen their hold.
Not only are they expecting it to go over the cliff’s edge, they are outright hoping for a collapse-level event.
They believe the only way forward is for a catastrophe to happen to make ‘the masses’ accept their “told you so” and will magically follow them when the time comes, that elections are broadly counter-productive because ‘the masses’ are, effectively, ill equipped to take care of their self-interests and need a core of ‘smart people’ to make the decisions for them. No where do I see how they reconcile their inability to win a contest of rhetoric but somehow win whatever decidedly less civilized power contest that would happen in such a catastrophe.
I will say I don’t see a realistic chance of the ‘best’ outcome, even if the legislature finally is opposed to the executive branch, we are dealing with an executive branch that is willing to break laws and only 2/3rds of Senate could hold it accountable, and that’s absolutely not going to happen. But it is certainly worth a shot to move the needle in the right direction.
Also, the coalition scenario doesn’t play out in the American system, so we could use some unlikely seeming reforms to get there. More parties with a more sophisticated voting system and perhaps removal of directly elected executive.
are ‘they’ in the room with us right now?
Judging from the comment section, yes
It really makes me feel like the arguments (and votes) to the contrary (which are plenty throughout this thread) are coming from one of two kinds of people:
-
Foreign interests attempting to push the US further towards fascism
-
Incredibly naive people, likely including children
I just don’t see how else a Trolley Problem answer like “I can’t touch the lever, because that would mean I killed someone” could be applied here. You can either sit back and allow the US to slide further towards fascism or you can vote for the party lightly tapping the brakes. When it’s primary season again, we can resume the very valid conversation about opposing the rightmost factions of the DNC.
Imagine a system where there are two rounds of voting, where we vote for a dinner we must all eat, between Salad, Sand, or Sewage. For numerous and mostly stupid reasons, Salad loses the first round and we now have to vote for Sand or Sewage.
I’m voting Sand, y’all. I know you’d rather eat Salad, and I would too, but it’s off the table as of the end of the primaries. Encouraging people not to vote for Sand just pushes us towards being forced to eat Sewage.
Yes, it’s infuriating. But here we are.
because both lever paths are going on the same track. That’s the problem.
Every single one of these analogies is doing a specific thing - ignoring that there will be future elections.
Yes, if you’re going to vote once for Sand or Sewage, you take Sand. But that is NOT the real choice. What you’re actually voting for is “Sand now, Sewage to follow, since we’re eliminating Salad”.
See 2020 - and how that led to 2024 - for a perfect example.
Nope.
Open fascism is not the exact same as half-hearted resistance to fascism, and any argument to the contrary incites voter apathy which the fascists depend on. Similarly, voting against fascism does not drive the country further into fascism.
Vote with your heart during the primaries, and in the general you vote with your brain while plugging your nose.
Your stance only makes sense if you’re unaware of the Spoiler Effect. Here’s some reading for you on the topic:
Open fascism is not the exact same as half-hearted resistance to fascism
Of course it is - because if you’re not going to change direction, then slowing down the speed which you move to fascism doesn’t matter.
And the Democrats as they stand are effective ONLY at stopping any move to the left.
and in the general you vote with your brain while plugging your nose.
Use your brain. Has your strategy worked? It’s been done for literally 3 decades, and the US has drifted more and more to the right.
It’s not hard to understand why, either, if you actually use your brain. You’ve removed any consequence for the supposed opposition to move to the right.
In a 2 party system, the most marginal voter is the one that sets policy. And you’re demanding that the left make themselves the least marginal.
Here’s some reading for you on the topic
It is funny how shitlibs hold onto their arrogance above all. It’s one reason why your brand is even more poisonous than the GOP, who most people do hate. They just hate you more, and this is why.
“A spoiler campaign in the United States is often one that cannot realistically win”
So Kamala was a spoiler?
This is beating around the bush because we’re clearly using different definitions and you’re getting increasingly ridiculous (straw-men and ad hominem) because you aren’t getting any traction with logical arguments.
So let’s establish what you’re actually advocating for, as I’ve already made my stance clear above:
Which POTUS candidate did you vote for (or would you have voted for if you were eligible) in 2016?
Which POTUS candidate did you vote for (or would you have voted for if you were eligible) in 2020?
Which POTUS candidate did you vote for (or would you have voted for if you were eligible) in 2024?
Hell kiddo, I’ll do you better . . . because I’ve got the mileage to show exactly how sick of this bullshit the Democratic Party does I am. Do you want the names of the rotating villians they used for the bait and switch as well? Cause I’ve got those.
2000 - Bradley primary / Nader general 2004 - Dean primary / Kerry general (volunteered for both) 2008 - Obama primary / Obama general (volunteered for both) 2012 - neither 2016 - Bernie primary (volunteered) / Hillary general 2020 - Bernie primary (volunteered) / Biden general (against my better judgement) 2024 - Marianne primary (what little there was) / De La Cruz general
When I tell you your Vote Blew No Matter Hoo nonsense doesn’t work, it’s because I’ve been there.
Okay cool, so you did the right thing by voting strategically until 2024, where you threw away your vote.
Whenever you see a headline with Trump in it, I hope you feel responsible.
Both teams are open fascists. You just do not notice or care when your team is in charge
-
Its almost as if these posts are put up to be divisive, and to keep any opposition to the current right wing neoliberal order divided. Huh.
Do you think the Democratic Party opposes the neoliberal order?
TIL Pelosi is the only democrat.
Democrats and liberals by definition are pro capitalism. Stop conflating leftists and liberals. Leftism begins at anti capitalism.
Democrats are a political party, one that hasn’t had a consistent ideological set of beliefs throughout its own existence. For that matter neither has the republican party.
They are not “by definition” pro capitalism.
Well, they’ve always been capitalist. There’s never been a time when they weren’t capitalist. So… odd argument to make.
You and @Space_Cowboy92 don’t seem to have the best reading comprehension.
I was refuting that democrats are “by definition” pro capitalist. Not whether the party leadership always had an explicit pro capitalist agenda. Those are different things.
Now, I did say their ideology has changed, which is also true. I said that to support my argument, but it was not the point I was making in of itself.
Weaseling in a word that indicates an immutable and intrinsic trait to something that is not immutable in that way and then subtly backpedaling to a different stance is slimy.
Yes, in theory, if we remove all the current leadership, the Democrats could not be capitalist.
And, given how US election law is written, which has carve outs for the Dems all over the place to avoid 3rd parties, that is what is needed.
But the Democrats as they now and in all times past have been are capitalist.
Did you know she was speaker of the house? That’s, like, a big deal.
It doesn’t matter what random Democrats think (obviously), it matters what the leadership thinks.
This is almost repeating the argument that is literally what the OP is getting at.
The point is democrats and republicans are not the fucking same and people who say they are are not serious people or worth serious consideration.
So, to repeat the question, do you think the Democratic Party, of which Pelosi is a leader and not even the most right wing one, opposes the neoliberal order?
That isn’t the question, that is a pivot, but fuck it I’ll bite.
Do you really need to fucking use the term “neoliberal order”? You sound like you are talking about an evil cabal in Deus Ex. I can’t take it seriously. Just say capitalism. Do they oppose capitalism as a whole party? No.
But some of them individually certainly seem to and the ones talking to most leftwing politics are doing generally pretty decently right now in primaries and generals.
But whatever, really at this point who fucking cares? No one gives a fuck about reality anymore and the world is going to collapse into garbage regardless. Getting democrats at this point is just an opiate vs getting republicans which would be more like being fucked by a knife on our collective deathbed.
Give me the drug. I prefer the drug over the knife fucking. OK? Its that simple.
